Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Hey, Jamie,

Jamie: 0:33

how's it going? How are you?

Kurt Neiswender: 0:37

Well, the green room was a lot of fun.

Jamie: 0:40

Yeah. I mean, we, we went down there

Kurt Neiswender: 0:42

and joined us into the episode.

Jamie: 0:45

You missed out. There were some,

Kurt Neiswender: 0:47

I got the full show.

Jamie: 0:48

There was like tears even

Kurt Neiswender: 0:51

shed. Bad jokes were had. Yep. Bad jokes probably will have more of. Probably. It's one of my, it's one of my prime skills.

Jamie: 1:04

There might've been a cry for help, but yeah, we've, we've, we've moved past that. And, and here, and here we are. We're in the welcome to the portion. Well, yeah. Welcome to the show. This is episode one 56.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:18

One five, six. Who's counting? We

Jamie: 1:23

are. We are, totally. Yeah. Gotta, gotta, you know, keep up with the Joneses. So, whoever they are.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:32

What are the Joneses drinking, coffee wise?

Jamie: 1:35

I, I have props. That you don't even know about. So, I, yeah. I went

Kurt Neiswender: 1:44

oh, there it is

Jamie: 1:45

with this honey favorite. Oh, my goodness. It's quite good.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:51

I didn't even have did I have any? I think I had

Jamie: 1:54

you had it. You had it there.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:57

But

Kurt Neiswender: 1:58

but good. Huh?

Jamie: 1:59

We yeah, it's good. It's good.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:04

Well, well, tell tell everybody what it is then. Because, okay,

Jamie: 2:08

so it's the roasting counters from rootless. Isn't that a fabulous bag? Great

Kurt Neiswender: 2:15

bag too. Yeah. Gold. Unfortunately, not to spoil it, it is such a small batch. It is no longer available.

Jamie: 2:26

Yeah. So I'm, I am, I'm, I'm trying to, you know, rash. It's like I'm rationing. Like I'm rationing.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:33

I don't think, you know what? There's two camps. There's the ration camp. Right. You want to save the good stuff, but there's also like, you know, The fact that the Rootless guys are great at is, well, they'll just keep making more.

Jamie: 2:49

Making another good one that you're just like, yeah, forget about that last

Kurt Neiswender: 2:53

one. I also sent you SureShot, right?

Jamie: 2:56

Like, Rootless needs to use that meme, you know, of the, you

Kurt Neiswender: 3:00

know, of the,

Jamie: 3:01

ooh, you know, that meme, that meme. You know which one I'm talking about.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:05

Yeah, but have you, well, yeah, that's a good suggestion. However, have you seen some of their latest ads? No, they, you know, so have you been bombarded with mushroom coffee ads ever on social media? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, now they're spoofing all of those. It's fantastic. You got to, you got to check it. So anybody who's watching, watch, go, go check out rootless coffees, social media. They just do a great job of hemming, hemming it up with utilizing the social media for.

Jamie: 3:37

So I will ask you then. So what coffee are you drinking today? And it better not be mushroom.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:45

No, no, no way. I will, I will never go down that road. The, well, today I had, so I'm in between rootless, In at the moment. Sorry, guys. I did grab a Starbucks green apron blend. So that's, you know, I was reading the notes. I was like, I'll give it a try. But also I did have a cold brew today from Penny's Cafe exclusively brews rootless was Berry Kiss cold brew. So Berry Kiss is a, like a standard or a regular flavor. They have not one, which I recently, I know which I'll get, which, which I think I, I also have to ship you some anyway, some coffee, sketch podcast, coffee,

Jamie: 4:44

it's a

Kurt Neiswender: 4:44

resupply that's available in, in the store up there.

Jamie: 4:47

Yeah. As, as are our shirts, which we were commenting in the green room that we did get, like, it was sort of really nice on it, honestly, is that we did have a really great reaction to admittedly Kurt's idea. I might've executed it. You know, you know, in collaboration with him, but yeah, it's, the shirts turned out great.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:11

And yeah, and yeah, I'm also pleasantly surprised it's flattering to even get like, yeah, people picking up on the, on the emoji or emoticons. I don't know what do you call them these days? The little graphics emoji.

Jamie: 5:29

We'll go with that,

Kurt Neiswender: 5:31

you know,

Jamie: 5:35

I mean, for, for us now, I think it's just iconic. Like, I'm not even worried about what. Like you, we want to, it's not, I don't know what icons they're icons. Yeah, basically, but stylized, you know, for stylized for our use and, you know, definitely indicative of what we do here on this podcast is talk about coffee, talk about sketching, talk about just sort of where we are in our lives and our journey and love of art and architecture. And, and this is the recap part two. So if you're listening to this one, And you're like, they seem to be jumping in in a weird spot, that might be the case, you missed one, you missed one, and go back one, go back one episode, and you, you'll get kind of an interesting recap, that's a great primer for this episode as well,

Kurt Neiswender: 6:28

yeah, but could also be worse. Listen out of out of order, if you're in a pinch

Jamie: 6:35

in all honesty, most of our episodes could be listened to out of order and people would probably still enjoy themselves.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:42

You know, you know, we don't just make podcasts, but we do listen to podcasts and I actually do appreciate. Podcasts that aren't necessarily serialized, you know. I mean, I like cereal, but you know, when you're like myself right now, I'm in a

Jamie: 7:02

spread too thin is basically a

Kurt Neiswender: 7:05

busy moment in the professional world. And so I've fallen behind on my own listening. And so now I'm doing a little catch up, trying to get myself back into the. The rhythm, and so when they're not serialized, then it feels like. I can just.

Jamie: 7:26

Well, and, and, and along those lines, I think this is a great segue for us is that, you know, as we're, and we're going to, we were planning to talk about it as part of this recap. But as you're talking about getting back into the podcasts, you know, both of us took a moment to listen to the recap of some friends of ours, you know, on their podcast, who also went. To the AIA national convention in Washington, DC, and they just posted or dropped their episode of their recap, which was fun to listen to because it's, you know, you know, folks that we know really well, listening to their perspective, you know, part of their stories and tales were a part of or interacted with them during some of those episodes, not episodes like podcast episodes. Episodes, you know, interactions,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:18

you mean like the car drive out the car drive home and

Jamie: 8:23

I'm not going to trigger this isn't, this isn't part of the trigger warning, there's there, you know, we need to put like a whole thing up along the bottom of the screen, you know, this is the part of the episode that might trigger. Tears for positive vibes only. Yeah. It, it's all positive vibes. Yeah. No, no. In all honesty, we, we did joke in in our last episode about all of our travel woes or just sort of, you know, you know, fun adventures, you know, for us and our friends, planes, trains, automobiles, the whole bit. I

Kurt Neiswender: 8:54

think, I think it was manifested, the term would be manifested.

Jamie: 8:58

Yeah. I mean, we joked about

Kurt Neiswender: 9:00

it. We talked about planes, trains, automobiles before we even left for the conference and for some. It was planes, trains, and automobiles. Like our absolute and then a little bit of automobiles just for me.

Jamie: 9:17

Yeah, and then, and then apparently, you know, Evan had some plain adventures. I have to say that I lucked out. I felt like is that my whole travel adventure was pretty. Pretty uneventful. I think that, that ride to the airport was, you know, felt a little dicey.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:35

Oh yeah, huh. But,

Jamie: 9:37

yeah, because I mean, you know, you know me, I like to get places early. I'm generally, you know, like for me being on time is being early, you know, you know, as a general rule. So airport, you know, notwithstanding, same kind of thing. And I didn't tell you this little anecdote. I wanted to save it for this episode is so, you know, Southwest. I don't know if you fly Southwest very often as a Texan.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:06

I live in the Midwest. So yeah,

Jamie: 10:09

as a Texan Southwest Airlines. Is kind of a whole vibe. Right. You know, it's, you know, you, you, it's probably gonna be, you know, your first choice, you know? Mm-Hmm. for you. Like, do they fly there? I feel most comfortable with them. Let's do it. And generally speaking, you know, rates

Kurt Neiswender: 10:27

are that, that should be a commercial for South

Jamie: 10:30

Yeah. Rates are, rates are competitive, you know, but, so, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm at the airport, you know, had that, you know, adventure to get there, but there. You know, I'm on time. Everything's fine. I might have cut it a little close, but So Southwest for those listeners from, you know, cause we do have some listeners from other countries as well. You know, Southwest airlines, you do not have a designated seat on the plane,

Kurt Neiswender: 10:56

right?

Jamie: 10:57

If you have a, if you have a ticket, you have a seat on the plane, but it really could be anywhere on the plane. So that's sort of fun, right? It's kind of like musical chairs

Kurt Neiswender: 11:08

or like the AI conference

Jamie: 11:10

or the AI conference.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:12

Yeah.

Jamie: 11:13

And so.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:15

If you signed up, you have a chair. If you get there on time.

Jamie: 11:20

Yeah, let's let, we can, we can definitely talk about that in just a second. But so, you know, so part of the fun is that you check in for your flight, you know, 24 hours ahead of time on your phone and, you know, hopefully you check in, you know, right then, because then you get your boarding position, right? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you're in the A or B, A or B group. You're probably going to be fine with your, your, your two, you know, carry on bags, overhead. So yeah, yeah. You're fine. There's going to be space.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:55

If

Jamie: 11:55

you're in the, if you're in the C group, okay. You probably need to think about checking that bag. And then maybe praying, you know, gate check. Oh, they'll gate check. Yeah. They'll gate check at that point. Cause they, cause they know, like if you're in a C group, they just know that there's not going to be room. Like, you know, and they want the plane to leave on time. So at that point, it just, it saves everybody a lot of stress. You know, you don't want to be that, that person who's like walking up and down the aisle, trying to find a spot for their carry on bag, but so I was in the a group, you know, did my check in early was very, very early in a group, maybe in the first part of the a group, which was great, a one. So I'm sort of there and I'm standing there and I see this couple kind of like, kind of rush up to the gate and they realize, okay, we're about to board, but they're like, they're happy they made it. They probably did that whole, you know, taxi and Uber gauntlet to get to the airport. And I look and I was like, Oh, wow. That's David Lake, you know, of Lake Flato, who was AI gold medalist this year.

Kurt Neiswender: 13:09

The, the, the, what would you say? How do you put that? The, the one of two, cause they both won the gold medal as a partnership in the firm. The toast of the town, I guess, for lack of a better, I can't think of the better phrase, but basically the, the, the main, the head cheese to be celebrated for the year. Yeah, I mean, you're at the airport with him.

Jamie: 13:35

Yeah, well, and, and, and like, I'm already in line and they're like there and they're like, you know, kind of, you know, kind of composing themselves and, and so, you know, and he was, you know, he, even though he was a little bit late, right? He was in that early group as well. So it was great. So he's sort of standing there and he's like, Oh, you know, and I'm like, Oh, no, your guys are fine. You know, everything's cool. And then I just said, And he just was like, and it was like at that moment where like, you know, all the stuff, all the stress that they had just gone through and getting the airport. It was like, I just, you know, in my brain, I was like, I'm going to just sort of, you know, I'm going to give him that, you know, just sort of that moment to go, yeah, this was a great trip. You know, this was, this was my moment to, and, you know, and all he had to do was just be like, Oh, you know, thank you or whatever. And, but it turned into like, which I didn't expect a very lengthy conversation while we're standing in line. Cause it took a little while to, for them to move ahead with the boarding, but super nice. You know, I, I have heard, you know, I'm being from Texas, have heard them speak, you know, many, many times, you know, can't say that I've had that lengthy of a conversation with him before, but it was very, very nice. And it was kind of a nice way to kind of end my travels, you know, from, from, from DC back to, to Austin.

Kurt Neiswender: 14:58

Yeah, there, you know, we, we, well, we haven't really gotten into the. Well, we, well, we were about to get into the, some of the recap part, but when they received the gold medal and they had a little ceremony in the beginning of the keynote on day two, I mean, I think that was one of the best thank you, or what do they call it? Acceptance speeches. Acceptance speech that I've ever heard. The most genuine appreciation for their team, you know, not just the 2 of them as partners or founders, but then the entire staff and how they got to where they are now, you know, if anybody's not aware of late play to architects and and you should look them up. And check out their work, and not only just for their sensitivity, you know, they're sort of prime thing is like sensitivity to the landscape. But now, I mean, so much of their work is like, you know, the most rigorous of sustainable and energy efficient buildings on top of their consideration of the land that the building sits on. But, you know, just exemplary. Work, which also seems, I mean, you know, this is always a very hard thing to put your put a pin on on or in, like, for cost of buildings, things like that, but their designs don't seem unapproachable, like a pure museum piece or something that has a very comfortable sense of materiality and. Scale all their projects, no matter if it's a house or commercial building.

Jamie: 16:45

Well, and I think a lot of that

Kurt Neiswender: 16:46

work

Jamie: 16:47

and I think a lot of that comes from, I mean, they're sort of, they epitomize the idea of a regional modernist, you know, and, and you and I, when we were in school, the phraseology in sort of architecture theory, theory and history was critical regionalism, you know, was sort of the buzzword and I think they epitomize it. But at the same time, what you're what you're describing is even more complimentary of the work, you know, in its relatability to folks is it's very approachable. Just as they are, and I think that their firm is, is that there's a relatability to the way that they are generous in the way that they describe their work, the way they interact with their clients, the communities that they serve, the materiality of it really feels like it's about this place, you know, now that they are even, you know, stretching past sort of our region and doing work in other places, I think they're being, they're, they're They're realizing where they are when they're doing their projects, and I think that that's really evident and but I think it also kind of comes from, you know, two aspects is kind of humble beginnings is that all these firms have to start out somewhere and, you know, explore ideas that seem important to them that their clients might not completely be on board with. And I think that that's something that they're very akin to sharing with, you know, as part of their story, even now, you know, decades and decades later of success, but then also just kind of who their touchstone is in terms of their own careers was O'Neill Ford, you know, and. Right. And I think that that kind of, kind of humbleness, you know, of, you know, being a good modernist architect, but then also being about a place at the same time so that you can do both things really, really well is really, really evident in their work and their practice. And then the research part that you were just describing, yeah, they've got some super talented, you know, folks that they intentionally bring on board to do hard research. You know, and, and so that it helps their projects from a sustainability perspective, resilience perspective, you know, net zero perspective, all those types of things. I mean, we've talked about it on a past episode about 3D printing and Icon, you know, Lake Flato Demonstration House here in Austin, you know, they were the architect. You know, for that 3D printing building, you know, it's a really, really nice, you know, residential project. So I, I think, you know, their ability to kind of navigate all those things and not lose sight of who they are, you know, you know, that's why you, you have firms like that, that are recognized and individuals like that who are recognized with kind of our highest achievement in, in a profession.

Kurt Neiswender: 19:37

Yeah, it was, yeah. Just a good, a good high point for me just to sort of, you know, when you have those days when. Work is a little grindy, try to put it all in perspective. So, yeah,

Jamie: 19:52

and heartfelt, I mean, like you said, you know, it was, it was, it was the way that they, they delivered that speech. I think, you know, you know, really meant a lot to him, clearly meant a lot to them. And so, you know, for me, seeing him kind of at the end there was kind of nice. I sat through his partner's presentation of their work earlier. In, in a, in a continuing education session, which dove a little deeper, which was, which was great to hear to kind of a neat treat, treat our friends at ARCA speak Cormac, you know, talked about going to that particular lecture and seeing one of his heroes, you know, so, you know, let's, you know, let's not forget. Yeah, I mean, let's not forget, you know, at this point, you know, for those who are like wondering, you know, what conference are these guys talking about 15, 000, you know, architects sort of descend on Washington DC for a couple days. And yeah, it was, it's, it's a great conference so that there are, you know, quite a few people from all over, not just, you know, the U. S., but, you know, internationally and yeah, and, and a little bit of a star studded affair and in, in, in some respects, so.

Kurt Neiswender: 20:58

Yeah, so. So, I mean, I'm just glad that you got to catch, you know, catch him in the airport and, and have the time to, those are the fun interactions, you know, I don't know, people probably think, you know, movie stars are, are, are of that caliber for, but sometimes for us, you know, an architect that, that does really good work is, is at that level too. Yeah. Like, like the book that you're showing there, Brian McKay Lyons kind of fits, fits the bill too, is that, you know, we, we architects like to kind of revere, you know, really good work in the sense of art and artistry and then, you know, getting their autograph is probably more exciting than say a celebrity movie star.

Jamie: 21:51

Well, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in his case, I think it was sort of for me, I don't know if I told you that, too, with that book, though, is my, one of my mentors was the author of the book on, on McKay Lions, and so that's why, that's why he was at A& M, and I wasn't even a student, you know, when he came to present that book, but Malcolm had reached out to me and said, so, And I won't even do his accent. I used to be able to do his accent really, really well. But he's like, so you're going to come to this lecture and meet Brian, cause he's a Canuck too, you know? And it was like, what, what are you talking about? Of course I'm going to come, you know? And so that was the way, you know, Malcolm, of course, introduced me to Brian McKay Lyons was, this is Jamie, you know, he's one of my, you know, one of my former students, you know, one of my favorites. Yeah. He's a Canuck just like you. And so that was the way, you You know, there was no beating around the bush with Malcolm. He was going to cut to the chase and make sure that Brian knew that I was a Canadian born just like himself and big fan of Mr. Malcolm. So yeah, it, it was, but yeah, it's like you said, it's those moments that you get those kind of unique introductions. I know you've had a fair amount, you know, in your career as well. Yeah. It's. And, and it's, and again, another architect who has sort of a real relatable kind of architecture where it just feels about a place. And I think that that's some of the stuff that, you know, for us as designers, I think that you and I probably feel like that's an aspiration in our work. You know, that's, that's something that we, we try and try and find and, you know, having those moments at least. Kind of interacting with those kinds of folks, you know, gives us a sense of, you know, it's, it is possible, you know.

Kurt Neiswender: 23:45

Yeah. And I mean, there's, I think that's something that we can to be continued because there's, there's a whole variety of like angles that we can go down just based on that, that point and, and, and something that we can plan for the future, as far as variety of different conversations about these things in relationship to, The work that we've done and the work that we plan on doing. Yeah. Collaboration.

Jamie: 24:16

I was going to say, I was, I was hoping that's what you were, I felt, I felt like that's what you were saying. And so yes, on the same wavelength folks, there, there could be some coffee sketch designs in the future. Yeah. Architecture in the future beyond, beyond just the scope of this podcast. So this is one of those mark the tape moments. And yeah, we'll, we'll just, we'll leave that one there for now.

Kurt Neiswender: 24:39

Yeah, so, so should we show and tell a little bit of the sketch sketches and recap or recap items? Yeah.

Jamie: 24:48

For those that are

Kurt Neiswender: 24:49

watching and then it'll it's our visual aid for our conversation. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely there's a, there's a curatorial aspect of. Of thing design that we've, we've been talking about and again, I'm kind of back on the tangent that we're. supposed to park for the feature. Yeah. I think like with McKay lions, it's a little bit about. Doing a few, it's not just a few projects, but you know, like fewer projects, well done versus many projects quickly. I won't say not well done quickly. Anyway, we, we, we, anyway, our version of the recap, I think starts with, you know, day one. We had a, well, we don't, we don't have picture for everything. Otherwise this episode would be way too long. It would be way too long. We started with coffee, of course, after the day, the travel day. And then we got, we had a

Jamie: 25:53

wonderful meeting

Kurt Neiswender: 25:54

and invite invited to sit down with the people at SketchUp.

Jamie: 26:00

Yeah. And I think that, so for those who remember our AIA 23, Recap or a 23, but we went through that in the last episode while we've, while we changed our hashtag here, but yeah, so the, the folks at SketchUp again, you know, consider them friends, they certainly are, you know, very generous with their time with us. And, you know, what's, what was nice was, you know, we, we got to spend in this particular case, we didn't have to do it on the expo floor that we did go by their booth afterwards. So for, you know, for these conferences, there are quite a number of. You know, product suppliers, technological advancements and things like that, that all come to, you know, kind of interact with the architecture community. And in this particular case, you know, I think what, what we were super excited about was, you know, this opportunity to talk with the folks at SketchUp again, you know, for a second year. And, you know, last year, I think the big takeaway for me was, and, and I definitely want to kind of. You know, hear what your sort of high level stuff on this as well, Kurt. But it's last year was the ecosystem of advancement that they were trying to do for SketchUp as a product. Both of us have been using it for way too long.

Kurt Neiswender: 27:21

You know, it's like 20 years for me now. Yeah.

Jamie: 27:24

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, we're in the decades kind of, you know, Yeah, we're in, we're in the decades camp for, for this product, but you know, along those lines though, is that, you know, the, the ecosystem for any user, whether you're, you know, in it for the first time, or I've been using it for years and years is it's very, very familiar that the look and feel of it doesn't really change too much though, under the hood. There's a lot of different improvements and, and as a, as a company, they're, they're certainly wanting to do those advancements, but what we saw last year in San Francisco was, you know, a lot of work with AI and a lot of work with their sort of rendering platform. And then also their work with iPad and kind of the mobility platform of it. But at the same time, as they're doing all those advancements, You did not feel like you were being pushed out of their ecosystem. And, and I think that, you know, my interest in sort of talking with them, you know, this year was, you know, we're, we got to see things that are, you know, fresh and new that they're revealing right now. And then some things that are on the horizon that we can't talk about as much as we would like, but you know, things that are in development that we can get excited about. But I think that that spirit of the ecosystem. They are, they are sold on it just like us as, as sort of users and all the, the. Advancements that they're creating are kind of still housed within it so that the familiarity is there so that the learning curve doesn't feel like it's steep. And so that was super exciting to see.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:04

Yeah. The, the ecosystem that they brought up to us last year, I, I think now it's just this interoperability to use a big word. The fact that it's, it's just a seamless transition, which I was impressed with. Is there, and, and, and I mentioned to them and when, This is a reminder for us is that we're going to try and weave in little bits of the conversation to this episode into the audio track that we recorded while we were there in, in at least the parts that we're allowed to talk about right now. And then, you know, as the good part is when there's their stuff will roll out within the year, right? They, they don't, they don't wait too long, you know? So that's the exciting part is that it's near near future, but it's how seamless that. They can move from, say, one platform to another, either web versus desktop to iPad, and you can, you know, sort of share, share the same model. And, and, and I just appreciate in general, and like I was about to say, this, their responsiveness to, Users, you know, clients like us, right? Like architects and being able to develop or adapt the product to meet the needs in a very quick fashion, right? You know, their, their ability to add to the software on a continual basis that have meaningful updates and applications and components that we, we could take advantage of. And actually, you know, I've been tinkering with. The iPad app, cause I know over there, out there behind the house is a garage that we're thinking about putting a little ADU on top, accessory dwelling units. I've done a few of those. Yeah. And sticking that, so I'm starting to draw, I use the iPad to scan. Scan the garage, right. And then pull it into SketchUp on the iPad. And then I can, I actually, it's so simple. It's, it's like almost, it's so easy that I almost thought I was doing it wrong, but basically I can also then sync it to my desktop from the iPad. So now it's saved in the cloud. I could pull down the model. Work on it in any location, iPad or desktop, laptop, whatever. And then start designing, you know, from the scan that I took of the space. And just as an example, I mean, I only just started, right. And it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, all these steps. And, you know, not to sound like a, a big commercial for SketchUp, but, you know, as a part of a response to like how quickly. They described the tool set to us and then we can actually implement it in a meaningful way. So,

Jamie: 31:58

well, and I think a part of it is it's like you said, it's not a commercial, it's, it's just more of, I think, you know, as they're trying to sell a product to us as sort of users and explain to us sort of the advancements that they're seeing for something that. You know, for a small firm or a medium sized firm or sort of a general creative, I think is, you know, it, it really fits, you know, the mold for for a lot of that workflow. The trick had always been, though, is that. As it moved in and out of that workflow that you would be moving to an Adobe product to do, you know, kind of renderings and touch ups or you'd be moving to a CAD product because you needed to be able to, you know, kind of really augment your model or augment your design into a level of documentation and detail that you didn't feel comfortable doing in SketchUp. Well. You know, that environment has changed and so, you know, I think their ecosystem is sort of being more robust in that. But then at the same time, I think what they showed us a little bit this time was also sort of recognition of who our clients are and sort of now it's not just making our workflow, you know, be able to do the things that we want to be able to do. We're not going to talk about the sketching, but there might be sketching, you know so just getting that in there because, you know, podcast, right? But, you know, It's, I think they're kind of recognition of, you know, who we're interacting with and that some of the things that we want the software to be able to do to make that conversation easier was super impressive. And I know some of that's not ready for primetime yet, but I think that, you know, the things that we saw were certainly they're headed in a direction that's really, really exciting.

Sumele: 33:51

But as you know, you've held the niche within the AC industry as the tool for intuitive 3D modeling within conceptual design. But design doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's collaborative. All of the work that you do, you have to kind of engage with people. You have to win bids. You have to think about pulling in feedback. You have to engage with partners to do the things that you're trying to do, right? And so All of that relies on collaboration as a core function of the work that we do day to day, effective collaboration and communication. So SketchUp is already being used for a lot of that, you know, you see lots of assets and videos and images and models flying back and forth between people's offices to get the work done. But over the last few years, we've really been trying to look at How else we can entrench ourselves and make that work of design communication even more potent for our users. And so looking to supercharging, we've been, we've been thinking, right, the pandemic really exposed a lot of gaps in being able to do it face to face all the time. If you're a stock continents apart, and we still have to get the work done, how do you do that via software? And we had lots of customers trying to do that using SketchUp successfully. And so that just really got us there. thinking, how do we make this happen even better? And what can you communicate by a software? And so that led us to two strong overhauls within our development process. And we thought, you know, let's rewrite our graphics engine. And so SketchUp 2024 delivers a whole new graphics engine for SketchUp, which delivers performance uplifts. And so we've had customers actually tell us that they've improved. Enjoy up to eight times faster frames per second loading in SketchUp whilst they're modeling, which is, that was, we had a more conservative estimate and people were like, no, this is amazing, like whizzing through SketchUp, right? And then the second thing that we also delivered with that graphics engine is visualization capabilities that we've never been able to do in the past. And the guys will show you more of that. What you, what you see of SketchUp and our assumptions around what SketchUp looks like is Okay. I went over a second. No, no, no, no. And then the second engine that we've built, which is brand new, is the real time engine, which opens us up to real time, collaborative, next level opportunities, right? So, the things that you'd have to wait Hand over the baton, send it back. I'm not going to instill Gopal's thunder, but that is a very exciting thing that we want to show you. So all of these new technologies are starting to manifest within the SketchUp ecosystem, and that's what the demos will be offering today. But I'll be remiss not to talk about AI. You know, we talked about some of those things last year, and that is starting to really transform, enhance, and enhance. And change the way that we do design communication, but also how we actually design reality of SketchUp today.

Sandra: 36:59

Yeah. So, today, JoPaul and I are going to share some features that are based on those kind of three pillars of visualization, collaboration, and some AI based workflows. So, there's going to be two sets of demos. The first one is what's available today in SketchUp 2024. So, these are things available to subscribers. The second set of demos will be a kind of peek under the hood of what we're working on. What's under development that builds upon these kind of first steps you're seeing. So, I will pass it over and I think we can probably get started. Alright,

Gopal: 37:39

great. Thanks Sandra. Thanks You guys can see my screen over? Yeah. Yep. Great. So you actually, we're gonna actually do a little bit where we'll be looking at my screen and then also Sandra's screen switch back and forth for now though, we're on this one. So anyways, I'm Gopaul, I am a product manager on SketchUp and what I have open here is SketchUp 2024. This is the version that we launched in April, so available to the public. And one of the features we're excited about that was available with 2024 is Native Cloud integration. And so this file that I have open is actually hosted in the cloud. And you'll see that indicated by this little cloud icon here. And we all know the benefits of cloud files. You know, they follow you to any device, so you don't, your SketchUp file is not locked to the device that you're on. But what's maybe even more exciting about cloud based files is the ability to collaborate with them. So the icon next to it, the two people, is what we call link sharing. And when I click that, it's going to open up a little dialogue. That is going to produce a link that I'm then going to share with Sandra. And so what this allows me to do is let me just grab this link. I'm going to pop over to Google chat, paste, paste, or the link. And you can watch on her screen. She clicked that link and it's loading in a browser. In the way. Awesome. So, what you saw on Nassandra's side is the model load in a web browser. And so, she doesn't have to download anything. She doesn't have to, even in this case, the way we've set it up, she doesn't even have to sign in. And so, imagine you're working with a client. They SketchUp user. All they have to do is send them a link. They're into it. That is very interesting. Yeah, glad you enjoyed it. And so, you can see Sandra navigating the model in full 3D. And so, the other, you know, obviously amazing benefit about this cloud based capabilities, is if I make changes here, Sandra's going to see them. And so, you know, in the past when I've had to share something as a SketchUp user, there are a few ways I might have done it. All of them are very similar. You know, a bit painful, but I may have produced a bunch of images, which means I flatten what I've designed, put it in a deck, share the deck, and then say I'm going to request a change, and then I have to go back and do it again. Or, I might do it over VC, and then, you know, over VC, you have to be available at the same time I'm available. On top of that, the frame rate, the, you know, pixel density is much lower over VC. So I design this beautiful model, but then I'm not showing it in its best light. Sandra with the link sees it in it's full glory and can open it whenever she has the time to. And we love that it's a coffee shop.

Jamie: 40:20

Yes. Right? It works. There's, there's, there's nothing like to be on brand like, so that's good.

Gopal: 40:28

Coffee's near and dear to our heart. And I should have mentioned at the top, just the role we're playing. I'm playing the designer. And Sandra's obviously playing the client, so I'm sharing my model with her. So let me go ahead and make some changes and show you how that part of the flow works. So, I'm going to go ahead and for the sake of this demo, I'm just going to open up the tags panel, and I have some entourage. So I'm just going to turn on the people, turn on some trees, just to add a little bit of dimension to this. And then, I want to replace this logo. So to your point, we all love coffee. And Sandra told me that this logo is not going to cut it. So I'm going to pop open 3D Warehouse. And I'm just going to search for a new logo. I'll make this pretty simple. And I'll grab this logo. I think it'll work well in the context. I want to see what Sandra thinks of this. So I'll just scale it down a little bit, my corner here, scale it down. And now what I'm going to do, and I want you to watch this icon here is I'm going to save the file and you're going to see in publish to the web, and then what's going to happen, this might take a minute over the conference wifi, but it'll, It'll publish over here, and then Sandra, within about a minute, will get an alert that there is a new update to her model. So we'll just, you know, kind of hang out for a second and see what happens. But then, you know, obviously, the great thing about this is Sandra always has access to the latest and greatest. And I don't have to even send her a new link. I don't need to keep updating.

Sandra: 42:07

I can always come back to this link here. Yeah. No matter when.

Kurt Neiswender: 42:10

Could you even like refresh the browser?

Sandra: 42:12

You can just refresh the browser. I could. So I could, I could either hit refresh here.

Kurt Neiswender: 42:17

But

Sandra: 42:18

if we wait until it pulls, there will be a little notification just saying. So, so the internet. There we go. So what is

Kurt Neiswender: 42:27

the new version of this file? Would you like to view it? Oh,

Jamie: 42:34

this is a great. Well, because it's also sort of like the way you're having to drive on your end, you know, for those updates. It's all still very, very intuitive and very, very straightforward. They're not having to like learn a software. They're in a native environment because they're in a web browser anyways.

Kurt Neiswender: 42:53

You have two users with accounts. You can also share a link and model into the same model?

Gopal: 43:01

Not yet.

Kurt Neiswender: 43:02

Okay. Yeah.

Gopal: 43:03

So this right now is the workflow is editor viewer. Okay. That's so Client and designer. Sorry. Designer and client.

Kurt Neiswender: 43:11

Yeah. And many clients don't, just can't read drawing, which is fine because I mean, it's not easy to to learn. And so the 3D, you know, it's way more at attainable. Understandable. And so being able to share the link to a client, and I could, and like Jamie said, they don't have to have. They don't have to have, yeah, any right skills in SketchUp to be able to, you know, at least move around a little bit.

Gopal: 43:36

That was actually one of exactly the insight that led us to this, which is I was talking with a customer and he's like, you know what? In every sales pitch I do, and every client review I do, I just open up SketchUp. I prepare this very pretty presentation. And somewhere in the middle of my presentation, I decide, you know what, it's easier to just show this in SketchUp. And so then he'll open up SketchUp, and we're just trying to find ways, like I was using that metaphor of crawling through glass, just to make it much easier. That like, again, it's a, you saw it, it was like, copy, paste, click, done. And so that was sort of exactly that, what you described as the genesis of this project.

Kurt Neiswender: 44:11

And this is one of my, one of the stepping stones into that collaboration theme that we've been talking about, because now we've had about 500, 000 users use link sharing and you've had 1. 3 million links shared. But on the flip side, we've had 2. 7 million people view those links, which tells you that that network effect of putting a thing out and having people consume it. is already kicking off. That's collaboration in Nomadess. So super exciting. Yeah. You know, what's an interesting, sorry, it just spins the wheels or the gears in my head. But like, so I recently was actually, I was like, Oh, I need business cards. So I bought some paper business cards. And then I found this thing where you can have these digital business cards. So I bought one of those and you can build up this little profile and you can put links into it. I wonder if you could embed. Models as part of that sort of portfolio and then so that if somebody does click on the link and they can kind of Instead of looking at a still image again, they're looking at curating your presence Yeah, you pick, you know real kind of way projects like this coffee shop and you want to get more coffee shops and Sort of immersive way more immersive

Gopal: 45:23

We kind of aspire to a Google Docs model, where like, you know, I think it's just there, and whenever you click on the link, and I say, Ron, it just pops open. We're not there yet, but this is, as Sumele said, our first foray into that world.

Jamie: 45:38

Is, I mean, is one of the, is one of the thoughts too, because I think that it also, I mean, we're, we're talking about, you know, designer to client, but it, it's, you know, at the client point of view, it's, it's almost like you're, you know, you're looking at it at the end of the day, and it's like you're kind of just reviewing kind of what's been sent to you, and there's, there's, there's that, there's all those benefits, but the other thought that I had was, That and we talked about this previous like my ability to sketch with a client is it's real time. It's fast. But if the client's not there, you know, that superpower sort of negated

Kurt Neiswender: 46:15

like

Jamie: 46:15

I'm stifled with it. So I have to, you know, I have to find a digital. Version of that superpower, you know, and, and this sort of is suggestive of that in my mind where you're like, you were just describing, you know, your situation where you're like, yeah, I've got images, but then I'll revert to the model in that sort of conversation with the client. Because you realize that that interactivity. You know, they can see you processing design skills about their project in real time and, and they realize your attention to their project, you know, and, and that it started to materialize or pieces of it, even if it's not complete, it's, there's a, you know, there's a, there's a benefit to that. Is there. Is there a, like we just saw the update there, but is there some, some level of thinking where you're going to be able to see that even faster? Yeah. Okay. Ten minutes.

Gopal: 47:06

Okay. Let's show a few other things of that. Okay. It's a great question. And that's something we're looking forward to too. So, the next feature I wanted to show is, last year at AIA we previewed this. And we just want to share where we've come with Sketch and Diffusion, so I clicked this little icon here. And this is our Gen AI. built into SketchUp. And so, let me actually just switch to this scene here. Switch here. So what you see is this diffusion panel. And one of the things we tried to do when we were introducing Gen AI to SketchUp is try to make it sketchable, try to make it approachable, Try to make it easy to use. You don't need to know too much about AI to get started with this. And the way we did that is we introduced some presets. And so these presets allow you to choose how you want this particular scene to be rendered. And so, you know, I could choose a photo realistic, this is exterior photorealistic, this is interior photorealistic, but where we are in the process is Sandra wants to actually share this model now with some of her investors, and she doesn't yet want to show the. You know, final product. She wants us to have some conceptual ideas early in the process and you know, the way that architects traditionally might have done this is with pencil sketches. And so we have a pencil sketch style. And when I click on that, it's going to actually pre populate. the prompt window with the things that would make a pencil sketch through this. Now I could go ahead and add my own details to this, but to keep it simple and to make that point about just a couple clicks, I just need to choose the pencil sketch and I click generate. And what it'll do is it's going to send it off to the cloud and you'll see the progress bar updated here. And it's going to produce a few different iterations of what a pencil sketch might look like. And so as it says, the robots are now doing their thing. It gives me a little preview of what those look like here. And so I like the second one, let's say, and let's say I choose this and I want to actually add it. To my presentation. I can click Add Scene. And what it's going to do, as you might have noticed, it generated a scene. And it put this image as an overlay. So let me go ahead and close this for now. Let me deselect.

Kurt Neiswender: 49:39

But is it a, like a, a style? As far

Gopal: 49:44

as like a, it's a watermark. It's a watermark that's overlaid on top of where it's a match photo. Actually, I think it's the technology, but essentially it works as an overlay over the scene. And what's cool about this is let me go ahead and just go to my scenes panel. I'm just going to rename this pencil. Sketch. And I'm just going to update the thumbnail. That would already be You've seen thumbnails. Okay, and then I'm going to save this, and we're going to go back to Sandra's machine. And in this case, Sandra, once it's updated, you can just reload it. And we're going to show this new mode that we've introduced into that version of web that will make this a little bit more like a slide deck that makes it easy for consumers of the model to just navigate it. So, yeah, go ahead. SketchUp for Web has been something that's been out for a few years. And what we've been trying to do is find ways to take advantage of the fact that we have a full 3D modeler online. And so this idea of just being able to share a link is one way we've been leveraging SketchUp for Web to complement the SketchUp for Desktop app. And so now that she has that, it's been a lot of fun. I'll hand it off to

Sandra: 51:09

you. Yeah. So I want to be able to share this with my investors who are, I want to be able to show them the scenes that Gopal has set up. So I can just forward the link to them and there's this little button here that if they click that, they'll get a film strip of the scenes. So if I click here, I can click through the film strip. I can even go into full screen mode. I can still orbit around. Let's see. But I'm also able to just use the arrow keys like you would in, so it's, it's still a 3D model. But you can Always just get back to the scene that the architect or designer wanted you to see by using the arrow keys. And you can see here that because it's always updating, I got the updates that Gopal made there. So there's the presentation style as well. Where you're able to have the film strip. If you want to exit that and go back into that more full viewing mode that we had, you can just exit there.

Kurt Neiswender: 52:22

I think what's cool about it is it really gives the non technical viewer a curated view of what you want to show them. You can create a compelling narrative and walk somebody through it without them getting lost. And if they do want to go into the detail, they can still still have the ability. It's not like

Jamie: 52:41

coming back to circling back on the conversation there. They're still there. Exactly. Yeah.

Gopal: 52:46

This is how I get my mom to use SketchUp. She's never going to be able to navigate a 3D model.

Sandra: 52:52

Right.

Gopal: 52:52

And I'm sure some of your clients are not 3D savvy. Right. But my mom knows how to navigate a slide deck. Yeah. And so send them a link, and then they just hit left and right on the keyboard, and they get SketchUp in all its glory. So again, part of what we're trying to do with web is lower that barrier to entry to this whole 3D world. This is one way we've been trying to make that happen.

Kurt Neiswender: 53:14

Yeah. And, and so, sorry, I gotta probably pan over. Resume out a little bit, but, yeah, that that part's exciting. Actually, I mean, I was going to get into. Other add other add ins and things like that, but we, you know, we can save that for another chat too.

Jamie: 53:32

Yeah, I mean, and the subtext, like, you know, we always have sort of, like, alternate titles for these episodes. Like, we haven't done that in a while. But I think the ultimate title for this episode, part two of the AIA recap is ambient occlusion.

Kurt Neiswender: 53:50

Yeah. And if you're a SketchUp user or fan, you know, you know, you definitely know. You definitely know. So yeah, the visualization. So, so other aspects of, of the, the conference for us, which I think is Parcel to our involvement with, with and architecture is the, the meetups, the get togethers with people that we know around the country, even sometimes globally. And so there's this sort of socializing, the social aspect that, that, you know, it's not, it's not pure socialization. It's a sort of networking if you want to use the professional term, but we get to meet with people face to face that we don't often see each other and in this sort of virtual world these days. So, you know, we've got a few pictures here just to demonstrate, you know, friends, friends of the podcast, friends of, you know, our professional world and architecture. So, I mean, starting on the left, right, as a, as a, as a key in on, you know, fellow entre architect, people's peeps that I know that Jamie knows as well. And then got introduced to in the middle, we have a bunch of podcasters and fellow young architects, fellow. Former young architect forum committee members. and then other, and on the right, you know, Joanna Dreiling, and Jeanine. Podcaster and friend of the podcast.

Jamie: 55:26

And, and, and just, I mean, and, and sort of great advisor, you know, to a lot of, you know, a lot of different firms and, and organizations kind of in our architecture ecosphere. I think that, you know, all in all, I think that. The, you know, each of these sort of moments that we just sort of, you know, really sort of cherry picked, you know, a couple of images to kind of, you know, of, of folks that we got to see, but it's like you said, you know, it's, it's an, the, the conference is one where, yes, there's keynotes, yes, there's tours. You know, yes, there's some continuing education that has had, but also just the, the opportunity to connect with, you know, friends from across the country, you know, is, is really, really special and, and to share kind of a city and architecture and a space with all these folks for a little bit. You know, we talked about on the last episode, you know, friends who were in, you know, you know, moving into kind of new roles within the AIA, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty exciting. And, you know, we're, we're happy that we get to have these kinds of experiences. And yeah, I think the, the one. You know, the, the beauty of the podcaster meetup was, you know, that's not even all the podcasters that we interact with, but it was, it was great to, you know, to, to meet, meet them, share a little bit of time, you know, kind of chat about, you know, what we're all trying to do and why we do it and, and how much fun we're having with it. And yeah, I think it was just a really, really good, good conference for, for the, for the two of us.

Kurt Neiswender: 57:07

Yeah. I don't think my introduction. Did it, did it justice enough, but you know, the, the allies that we have within the profession, I think is the, the word that I really wanted to land on, especially sort of when you think about Jeanine and Joanna in, in, in sort of encouraging us to keep doing what we're doing. This and, and just the practice of architecture as well. Some days that part to me is one of the best parts of, of the conferences. Recharging the batteries, professional energy battery, I guess, for a lack of a better term,

Jamie: 57:41

you know, and I think that you and I had a, you know, I just started looking at the photos and like, you know, someone that we haven't shouted out yet. But, I mean, you know, spending time with Larry was was really great because I think it was. You know, he's sort of a fan of the podcast and, you know, and definitely an ally and a friend. But I think that, you know, what was great was sort of his take on kind of what we're doing. And I think that for us, you know, that sort of feedback loop is, you know, is really appreciated, especially when it's not even solicited and, and to, to have it in sort of a genuine way, you know, amongst friends, you know, at an event like that, where we got to share a nice meal And, and, you know, quality time with folks that we care about. I think is, is, is pretty special, you know, just in general. So lots of great moments. We won't share them all here for sure.

Kurt Neiswender: 58:35

But you just have to join us next year. Yeah. Next year,

Jamie: 58:39

Boston. Yeah. We will be there. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 58:41

and then you get to see in real time what it's like, but I will, one other gold star goes to Ryan McEnroe over here on the end. Oops. Now I just moved my little image who is, was elevated to the college of fellows. For the AIA American Institute of Architect fellows. So it's a high honor for, for our membership. And you know, Ryan was a good friend from our days on the young architects forum. So I just wanted to point that out and hopefully a few more of us from this photo will soon be there as well. So anyway, yeah, like you said, so many stories, so many good times. And Already looking forward to next year, really, for me.

Jamie: 59:26

Yeah, well, I mean, and I have to, I have to give, you know, Kurt props because, you know, as much as I generally give Kurt a lot of grief for all of the technology woes, or, you know, You know, pushing the agenda, you know, man, you know, you brought it this year. And I think that, you know, all in all, I think it was fun. It was, we, we did a lot of things that we had sort of treated as experiments before. And I think we'll sort of share those pieces amidst this podcast, but I think it really pushes kind of the things that we want to do forward in a new way. And yeah, this sketch, you know, as much as it's not something that's, you know, of Washington, D. C., it's definitely indicative of this moment for, I think, the work that, you know, the two of us collaborate on in regards to this podcast.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:00:24

thank you for the compliment. There's hopefully a little polish coming after years of practice. So yeah, we got a little bit tighter with some of the technology this year. Didn't feel, last year definitely felt a little. Discombobulated at times, but yeah, the, the, you know, the sketch here, which is harkens back to some of the roots or the roots, I guess, of the, of the podcast with the logo or or logo, but also homage and love of Carlo Scarpa mixed with Jamie's style and hand handwork, you know, in the sketch, but this sketch particularly was. Was fun.'cause I gotta capture a little snippet, which I guess I could show, I could show people now, right. So I think, yeah, no trench show and actually already lost the, lost the cue. So, Jamie, keep talking while I pull it back. Oh, I got, well,

Jamie: 1:01:26

I, I think yeah, you'll, you'll sort of see it, you'll see some Jamie side eye here in a moment.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:01:31

Yeah. The best part is that side eye. I don't think he knew I was coming, but he might, he might need

Jamie: 1:01:39

it. He might need to run that one back.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:01:41

Let's play it one more time. But yeah, you know, on the expo floor, the, the, the sketch was a prompt from AI DC and they had a little pinup wall, which was super cool. Like a napkin sketch exercise. Which they invited people to, to join in on and Jamie couldn't help himself.

Jamie: 1:02:02

Yeah, I mean, you know, come on folks. I mean, cocktail napkins, you know, prompting you to sketch and put it up on a wall. I mean, you know, I'm going to do it. So yeah, it was, it was great. I'm glad that they did it. And, you know, there was definitely only one sketch that was in my mind to do. So Castle Vecchio, Carlos Scarpa, you know, my fair Verona, you know, as an homage to, of course, this podcast, but all the things that, that we try and do and share with folks, you know, kind of through the, through what, you know, through this podcast and the conversations that we have, but yeah, it's, you know, this was fun, you know, pilot pen. You know, all in one sitting, I think we figured out this was a 12 minute sketch. And yeah, Kurt even got a little bit of the video catching me do it. So, you know, stealing off to find a little bit of a, a harder surface, you know, cocktail napkins, not the easiest thing to sketch on, but,

Kurt Neiswender: 1:03:01

especially with like, like a liquid. Pen as a, as a pilot pen for those that never tried. Yeah, you, you got to move quick and you got to have a, a light hand, very light hand. Yes. Or else start over.

Jamie: 1:03:18

Well, and, and also it's tricky because of the nib on it too, is that I've done that before is, you know, there was, you can snag it on that paper. And, you know, for those who, you know, are curious how many times Jamie's drawn on a cocktail napkin, just scan that old Instagram and there's a couple of them that pop up. You'd be surprised. I mean, you know, I'm not saying I'm the best at it, but it's like, you know, you, you do figure out sort of that you can do a whole lot more than you think you can do. On that surface, and I've seen others draw some amazing things on it as well, which of course, you know, then it, you know, makes me want to up my game. And so I'm, I was excited about this one. Got a bunch of cross hatch in there, you know, even with the, you know, difficult surface and a little bit of stippling, you know, got to, got to get the stippling in. So it was fun.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:04:08

Yeah, it was cool. You kind of snuck off to do this sketch. And then as I was talking to our friend Claire's. I realized, Oh, I better get over there before he finished because yeah, 10, 12 minutes, I think max maximum. I don't think it took any longer than that. And yeah, no, that's a great sketch. And actually, you know, did you grab a picture of. The board as a whole is, I haven't, I haven't seen that. I'm glad the AI, AI DC chapter thought of having a little hosting a wall for napkin sketches. You know, one of these years was maybe like five or six years ago. I think it was the Orlando show. One of the vendors. Did a coaster. I think it was coasters, right? You remember that? Yeah, that was fun too. And you know with our little bit older technology and in craft that's a throwback sketch, throwback tangent, but, you know, so kudos to AIDC for helping us scratch the itch while we're, we're at the conference, but I don't know. Yeah. Do you feel like we should probably wrap it up or otherwise we could.

Jamie: 1:05:24

I think, I think this was, I think this was a good wrap. I mean, you know, we, we covered a lot in sort of two episodes. I know this one's going to have, you know, a little bit of, you know, stuff in post where we sort of clip in, you know, a lot of information that we might've gleaned from our conversations with SketchUp and, and hopefully that all sort of, you know, comes out. You know, it makes sense to a lot of folks kind of why we did that. And, and if, if you're not necessarily using their products or haven't used them in a, in a long time, I think it's time to revisit them. Cause they're pretty exciting. It was, it was for folks like, you know, us who use them, it's great. But also for us as also sketchers and educators, in a sense, I think that, you know, there's, there's a whole lot to be had for folks innovating on that level.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:06:16

Yeah, it's. I think it fits right in with what we've been doing with the podcast, trying to use the best tool at hand to convey the message. And that's, I think one of the, the essence of our, of our podcast. So anyway, so thanks Jamie for, for catching us up.

Jamie: 1:06:39

Well, thanks for the trip, buddy. I mean, we had, we had, we had a good time always. And, and see you in,

Kurt Neiswender: 1:06:46

well, see you before Boston, but you know, see you in AI 25 in Boston.