Illya: 0:32

See, I'm making

Kurt Neiswender: 0:33

faces at you

Illya: 0:34

guys. Alright. Wow. Well, it's kind of, it's kind of sketchy in here. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 0:40

So, so Jamie, normally, normally we, we do a little bit of a reveal for a special guest, but I guess as

Jamie: 0:47

so I was going to say, but before you do the reveal, can you do the little typey typey typey at the top of the screen?

Kurt Neiswender: 0:56

Oh, you mean Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thanks. Thanks. You might hear some key strokes for a second. I had to work on the spelling there. So, good. All right. Now we're ready. So you want, you want me to flash? Oh, sorry. No loud, no loud noises. Let's, let's put that on the screen. And now we can say our special guest, Ilya Azarov, FAIA is with us. Welcome

Illya: 1:26

Ilya.

Jamie: 1:27

Yeah. Episode 154. Here you go.

Illya: 1:30

Wow. Thanks for having me guys. It's great to see you both. It's been a while. Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 1:36

I know. It's well, you know, with your social media. For all the things that you do, which is one of my favorite things to see is where your wheels are going up, as you say, the, as the airplanes going up, cause you're always taken off somewhere. And so it's always exciting to see your, your ventures in business and just as a spokesperson for our, our profession. So.

Jamie: 2:02

I'd say Ilya, my question is, has the family at any time in the recent years, like, bought you an outfit that has like red and white stripes and a toque? Toque,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:14

for those that are not Canadian.

Jamie: 2:16

No, no, no. See, like, Ilya comes from a state that has snow, so he knows where I'm at with this.

Illya: 2:22

Exactly.

Jamie: 2:23

Yeah. Where's Waldo? Yeah. No, no, they have not.

Illya: 2:27

But you know, I'll put that on my list. I'm giving

Jamie: 2:30

them ideas. You know, when the boy, when the boys are not sure, you know, Hey, no more cups, you know, for dad, you know, let's get something creative, cosplay, cosplay with that.

Illya: 2:43

I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give it to them and under advisement. And, and see what, what comes of it. Those two boys are pretty creative, but yeah, they, they always find something crazy for me.

Jamie: 2:52

Yeah, no, they seem, they seem like good, good kids.

Illya: 2:54

You're, you're planting some seeds of yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:58

You know, Ilya, you've been to some far off places. When I was, when I was a youngster, my twin and I, as we said in the green room for, for those that haven't met my twin brother. So as we grew up, my dad did a little bit of international business. And, and he would come back with a souvenir, obviously two, one for each of us. Were they always the same?

Jamie: 3:23

I thought you were going to say you were the souvenirs. I was like, Whoa. No, no, no, no. This, this episode went off the rails and we're only like two minutes in. What happened?

Kurt Neiswender: 3:31

No, no, no, no. He would bring us, he would bring us things back from, from where he would, he's been to, you know, China, Poland, Kenya, you know, and, and he'd find, you know, Some, some think like from Kenya, there was a little drum. It's kind of cool, you know? So anyway, so you bring these things back. So are you following, I mean, not that you grew up with me, but do you have a similar tradition of bringing? Yeah, well, I

Illya: 3:58

wasn't, I was wondering where that little Kenyan drum came from. I didn't know, but but thanks for that. No, no, I do the same thing for my kids. My dad kind of did the same thing. He traveled quite a bit for business. Not as much as I do, but. He always made sure that he brought something back for us that they would speak to geography and culture. And so I try to do the same for my kids and get them interested in, in these places. And I've had good fortune to be able to take them along sometimes too. And that's been that's been eye opening for them. But yeah, the gifts, yeah, whatever you can find, usually it's handmade, you know?

Kurt Neiswender: 4:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I'm glad. I mean, you know, it's, it's just a random thought that sort of just hit me right now. I figured it'd be kind of a fun, it's nice to see that traditions. Did you appreciate

Illya: 4:44

what he, what he brought back for you? Did it make you question about, you know, where, where he was and what he was doing?

Kurt Neiswender: 4:50

Yeah, yeah, especially, I mean, I particularly remember the drum because I mean, it was, it had, you know, cowhide, you know, full cowhide cover and, you know, and, and it, a particular look and, you know, after, as, as I got older, right, and understood what he did a little more, you know, you start to ask about, you know, the different places, it sort of becomes like a talking point or something that, you know, Derives a talking point, so that's, and he's, he passed away when we were in college. So, like, it now just becomes more of a sentimental, you know, something to think about in a positive, positive light, you know, since I don't, I don't get to have the conversations anymore because he's because he's gone. But yeah, so thanks.

Illya: 5:45

Yeah, yeah, same same. I lost lost my dad right after right after college, but those are the things that I missed the most are just those. Those conversations, but, but I totally appreciated those things, kind of opened, opened your eyes to a greater world out there and and also that your, your dad's thinking about you when he's, when he's on the road, that's kind of cool because, uh, you know that he's, he's, he's caring for you in every way that he can. You know, that's kind of cool.

Jamie: 6:13

Yeah. Been there. Understand it, you know, as a kid, as a dad. And I think, you know, couldn't say it any better. I think that, you know, so, you know, as we were alluding to where in the world is Ilya. So and then also who is Ilya? So episode 154, obviously Kurt and I know you very well. We're very excited to have you. We don't do interviews and special guests a ton. But when we do it's, it's for, you know, obvious reasons. You know, there's a familiarity with folks that we're excited about. You know, as previous guests have alluded to some, some of them love to sketch. Some of them don't. Some of them, you know, quietly sketch in the corner,

Kurt Neiswender: 6:50

some of them like coffee, some of them don't.

Jamie: 6:52

I know. So we have so many questions to ask. But first off, can you just sort of quickly kind of introduce yourself to our audience?

Illya: 7:01

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm Ilya Azaroff. I'm an architect geographer, educator, and I'm a dad. As, as you'd heard, and you know, I run a run a practice called plus lab, and we have offices in New York and Los Angeles, and I teach it to New York City College of technology. It's a minority serving Institute in New York City. Probably the largest undergraduate architecture school in the Tri state area and, a lot of the work that I do. Happens to be with frontline communities that are, that are facing the direct impacts of climate, a lot of indigenous communities all across the world. And my expertise is, has gotten me to a place where the federal government sends me all around the world to help foreign governments and communities to really figure out what their next steps are and try to secure their future. But you know, ultimately I'm a guy that takes coffee with cream. Just thought I'd put that out there. You know, we gotta make sure that people understand that. It's not, there's no

Jamie: 7:53

judgment on this show. I mean, there's maybe judgment when we do like upper peninsula, like, Oh, like, you know, geography and we're at that, that one rest stop. Yeah. But other than that, But Jamie,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:09

you'll never live that down. I bought gas station coffee one time and Jamie, Won't let me live that down. Well,

Illya: 8:14

look, you survived. So there's got to be something tough going in you, man. That's good.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:18

I, I, I represent a personal coffee resiliency. What you,

Illya: 8:26

okay. I have no idea what that is, but I'm trying,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:30

I'm looting to the resilient design work that you do.

Illya: 8:34

But the other thing that I would say is that you guys know me through, through leadership. I've, I've been, you know, A leader with inside the AI and outside the a i a with NGOs, not-for-profits all over the place, but with the, with the a I a I met you guys through the YAF and aside from Young Architects Forum, I've, I've served at sort of every level of the institute and I'm currently serving on the national board and with Cicada, I'm the chair of the Committee on Climate Action and Design Excellence. So I guess that that kind of encapsulates a lot of. The, the brief bio that you're looking for, and I'm sure you'll dig a few more elements out that I'm not willing to share initially, but I'm sure you'll look at them.

Jamie: 9:12

Yeah, we're going to get there. Trust me. We're disarming. We've heard we're disarming, you know, in our, in our banter.

Kurt Neiswender: 9:21

I'd say, I'd say that's probably a good treat. That way it is a good trait, but I do remember I mean, Jamie and I, I mean, you know, we, we started this podcast through our mutual time together from the young architects forum and afterward, you know, maintaining the relationship. And, you know, why we continue to do this, right? 100, 154 episodes in this because of that shared interest and, and the, the opportunity that we had to share together working on the young architects forum. And obviously. As you mentioned, that's where we met you as well. And some of our previous special guests. And, and, you know, to, to recall, I just wanted to bring it up briefly to recall recent, you know, the recent conversation with Ben Kazdin and, and Evelyn Lee. About, you know, Ben, put it in this way. The, the, the time that we spent together on the Young Architects Forum was this sort of strange, magical time that we got a lot of things done, worked super well together from people across the country and. And we're able to make it a whole, the whole task or the work on the committee also fun, right? I mean, to me, it was the best experience I had on, on service to the Institute before or after. And, and, you know, not that it all has to be as, as magical as it was on the young architects forum. But we kind of take that, that sentiment, I think, and, and continue to. To try and imbue that into future leadership opportunities and things like that, because it can happen. It doesn't always have to be sort of a volunteer chore for a lack of a better term. But anyway, so I, I, I appreciated that most of all out of the. Most recent conversations with say, Ben and Evelyn is that we all agreed that it was, it's, it was a special experience and a special group of people. So hopefully you feel the same way too.

Illya: 11:35

I, I, I do. I really do. I, I say this all the time that, you know, the best thing about the YF is that you. You find your colleagues that are your peers that you can rely on for advice, everything from starting my own firm to hiring practices to just talking about technology. And there is no sort of, there's a, there's a trust factor that you build up with your colleagues in the YF because you're all in the same storm and you're all in the same boat and you're trying to figure out how to navigate your thing. Your future, everything from family still dealing with college loans in some places and, and, and everything all the way down the line. And in some way you help each other navigate through it. So I find it to be 1 of the most special times. And I, I, I agree with you, Kurt, the ideas that we put forward, why F. Man, they were transformative to the Institute. That is no joke. Just everything from the Connections magazine at the time really was probably the pinnacle of what AI was putting out as publications. And I'm not diminishing what else was out there. That was at that time an extraordinary magazine and still is. But we also changed governance. And so the collective leadership that we provided was was excellent.

Jamie: 12:50

Well, I mean I enjoyed it. Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's you know, I think it's the, what's funny is like I, I joke about my Canadian ness and my poor vocabulary.

Illya: 13:00

Wait, wait, wait, you're Canadian? Hold

Jamie: 13:01

on. I'm Canadian. Yeah, I know. Right. Oh, wait, do you

Illya: 13:04

guys have a translating service on this? Do you guys need

Jamie: 13:06

something? Sometimes we need it. If you Maple syrup. Maple syrup. Don't ask me to spell, and don't ask Kurt to run the numbers. Thanks. Cause it's just, those are just the two things that

Kurt Neiswender: 13:19

spelling, spelling and math. That's why this podcast is about coffee and

Jamie: 13:22

sketching. Sometimes

Kurt Neiswender: 13:25

sports,

Jamie: 13:26

but, but, but, you know, on, on that sort of note about vocabulary, it's like, you know, like I, I can say that I probably, I knew what the word cohort was, you know, but after YF, like. I felt comfortable using it for the first time, you know because it really, truly was one and, and, and not necessarily something I was necessarily seeking out in sort of service to the Institute, but coming out of it it was, it was so refreshing. I mean, and all of us have. You know, and what's interesting is all three of us, too, is we're all, you know, have been educators or are educators. You know, we're also in, in, you know, private practice to some degree. You know, we also public servants to a certain degree as well. And then, and then sort of that service, you know, component to sort of kind of runs that thread, you know, constant. But one thing that I'm always sort of struck by. I'm talking to anybody in our, in our profession more so, but I mean, I think it probably resonates in others as well. Is, you know, with, with service to the institute, you know, at whatever level you do it at you're, you're bound to have these ebbs and flows of energy and willingness to kind of really engage with it. And, and I, I, I've mentioned it before on the podcast, but I think that my involvement at the YAF really hit at the absolute right time. I was, I was, you know, kind of asked to, to consider it. And, and I'm so glad that I did. Because it's, you know, I wouldn't have made the friends that I've made, you know, between the two of you guys as well as so many others. But I think it opened, like you said, Ilya, I think that that kind of cohort and the things that sort of have spawned from it you know, that have resonated as ripples in the Institute, whether, whether those ripples are readily apparent, kind of the through line back to it, you know, kind of that genealogy of where some of those things and why some of those things happen think about the mini MBA. You know, why did that happen? I don't know. You know, wonder who wonder who came up with that, right? The AI Leadership Institute. Oh, I don't know. You know, like we were doing simulcast things in multiple cities with six or 700 people, you know, with keynotes. You know, way before the pandemic, way before anybody was on zoom, you know, and so it's, I think a lot of those things are attributable to that, that cohort, you know, to that, to that blend in that mix of people. And One thing you didn't mention in your bio is kind of which state you're from, you know, and I think that that's sort of, I've always found that sort of absolutely unique, you know, to where you are now and kind of what you're doing now and then with that, can you tell me why? I don't think I've ever heard you say it. How did PlusLab, how did that, how did that term, how did that come to be? What's the origin story there?

Illya: 16:24

Yeah, you know, so I, I'm from the great state of Nebraska. I was born and raised there to you know, immigrant parents. My dad is was a war refugee and growing up there hearing what it means to be a refugee, understanding you know, my dad experienced severe loss, hunger, cold, Between the, you know, at age seven and on, he saw horrific things that really shaped his love of The simplest things in life and the love of family and also imbued in all of us how to help people. We have to help people in our in our lives. There's there's no other reason that you're here is to help people and enjoy the times that you have together. So so that's that piece. The plus lab is is. Is the 2nd iteration of my studio. The 1st, 1 was called the design collective. I went out with a partner, James chin and design collective. We just wanted to create a collaborative studio. That. We would broaden the tent by collaborating with everybody, sculptors, dancers, musicians, social scientists, all those things. And I really wanted to understand how to collaborate with everybody with this true belief that architecture at its best is a reflection of culture. So, how is it that my design team is limited to MEPs, structural engineers, interior designers and architects? So we did that for several years, 9 11 hit. We had to fire everybody, we let everyone go, and I didn't want to do that again, but I bought the, the office and I rebranded it called PLUSLAB. PLUS because we are additive to any process, we are guests in a process, we are not the generators of process, we make everything that needs to be done better and we bring it to life. The LAB is it's an acronym for Landscape Architecture and Building. And it used to be land use, but we just said landscape architecture and building because we wanted to make sure that we're understanding the scale at which you engage. Something has the entire geography at play. And and architecture has many forms and that you may not be building. But then we did say, you know, the tectonics of building is something that we're very good at and that's how plus lab came about and we've never kind of looked back, but we built on that. ethos of collaborating with everybody. And it's made my current practice successful. And when I say we don't do this alone. All my employees have a stake in the office. They profit share at the end of every, every year because it is, that is, they work hard, you get paid. That's, that's what it is. We work smart, we get paid. So so that's the genesis of, of, of what the practice is like. And it seems to work. I can't complain.

Jamie: 19:03

No, it's, it's thank you for explaining that because I think that that and I love, I love a good origin story for architecture practices. I think that. You know, I, I've shared it, you know, with probably with both of you, but I've shared it here on the podcast too, is that it's just, you know, for, you know, for a kid who, you know, didn't know he wanted to be an architect, didn't even know what an architect was when I got into architecture school, it was trying to figure out, like you say, is who are these people? How, how do they work? How did, how these collaboratives work? You know, when, how did all these influences come to come and come into bear on a particular project? And then as you mature and experience more things, you realize that that that breadth of that collaboration really can be so many more things and and where that expertise can come in. Like you say, as an additive process is.

None: 19:58

Yeah,

Jamie: 19:58

that's, you know, there's a there's a, you know, in that maturity as a designer, you know, it's not that you can't be, you know, I mean, like, we kind of come back to the sketch and the designer, you know, there's an ability and there's a confidence, you know, and all those things. And that that can come. Anytime. It's not an age thing. But I think that there's a maturity kind of as a designer in recognition of all of your influences and who you influence, you know, and I think that what I appreciate always sort of, you know, dipping in and kind of following what you're doing with your work and your, your, your collaboratives work. That's really evident. You know, and, and, and I think that that sharing of knowledge is, is really powerful. And it's, it's a great influence for, for so many of us. I mean, and you've, you've, you've shared even your studios, you're, you're teaching, you know, with Kurt and I and, you know, that's, that's been a fun. Been a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah.

Illya: 20:55

It's been fun. You've seen you've seen that. Oh, hey, we got some guests Yeah, we'll

Kurt Neiswender: 21:00

take this brief brief

Illya: 21:01

commercial interruption

Kurt Neiswender: 21:02

commercial

Illya: 21:04

The you know having you guys family

Kurt Neiswender: 21:06

first

Illya: 21:06

yeah, exactly, step into my studios has been been amazing because and and and you know with curt you've reciprocated i've i've I've sat in your studios as well. It's You It's great that the students see those perspectives, but also that you get an idea that the students that, that I love working with these, these kids at City Tech, they're my kids. And I say that because they're all first generation born, recent immigrants. It's a minority serving Institute and being first generation born in the U. S., I know what that family dynamic is rushing through, trying to be a good American in while being a good from, from where you're from. My dad was always struggling being a good Ukrainian and trying to raise us with these values. And then also saying, Oh, well, but you know, you're going to go and play baseball. He never played a lick of baseball in his life. He's like, he's, he's trying to make that balance. And so I see this struggles, those kids and making sure education is first and foremost. I love those kids and having you guys combine seeing Their work makes me so happy because you've been very complimentary and straightforward about their work. The ones that are, they're working their butts off and most of them are working their way through school. So It's been been pretty amazing journey there. I'm going to continue that.

Jamie: 22:20

Well, and I think that, you know, the other thing is having a practice in New York City. I mean, for me, God, it's enviable. I mean, it's like, like, if there's an envy moment, like, I mean, I have those moments, like, I will admit it, like, I'll fully admit it. Like, like, you know, New York city holds a dear place in my heart. But it's like, you know, for you, buddy, I might not, Hey, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe, yeah. All gas, no brakes. But, but, but at the same time, it's also sort of dipping into those studios and seeing the students talk about their neighborhoods, you know, talk about the places they're living and then, and then having that moment. To work with you or to collaborate with these, these, you know, guest jurors that are coming in to influence and discuss their projects and sort of you know, kind of question interrogate it. But at the same time, you know, it's still collaborative and that you're able to bring in that level of expertise that you as a practitioner, you know, Kurt and I are well aware of it, but seeing it, you know, Ilya as the, as a, as an instructor, you know, as a teacher is, is sort of a, it's a special moment, you know, because we can, we can see that you could go tip of the iceberg with all these students, but you're, you're also trying to, you know, drill in and give them that, that extra, you know, opportunity that they're working with you and, and your, all the knowledge and experience that you're dealing with in your particular projects and how that comes to bear in the projects they're working on. Yeah, I think, you know, all the sea level rise in New York City and, you know, we've seen all the studies and all the glamorous little renderings and whatever, you know, sitting in on a studio project where the students are front of mind, realizing what their future looks like

Illya: 24:08

and

Jamie: 24:10

able to talk about it and, and are, and are having that engagement because of the project that you're presenting to them, you know, and I don't necessarily know You know, how many other opportunities they're getting with that per se,

Illya: 24:24

I, I appreciate that. I, I I, I'm dedicated to bringing more, more hands to this, this fight. And these kids, they know what's coming and when they're armed with the possibility of responding to it, it's, it's not just, it's not a matter of experience at that point. It's a matter of, of, of their responses. Are incredible and illuminating and they just want to get at the work they are. They can't wait to graduate to change the paradigm of climate action and climate shocks and stresses. They just. Are hungry to get at it and I, I think I. I always tell my students this, I'm not your, I'm not your teacher. I'm a facilitator. You guys are extraordinarily powerful. I am going to. Make sure that the power that you have will be brought to bear on these projects. And I'm going to be very, very hard on you when you are not being true to what you're trying to do. And these kids they appreciate it and they do a lot of really good work and they all come out getting jobs. Some of them, as you've seen, Jamie, have been hired right out of my studio in the middle of a jury because their work is extraordinary. And these are leads from some of the major firms in New York City. They're in there, they're looking at this kid, they're online, they're going, Holy crap. You mean to tell me you're 19 years old and you produced all this work in how many weeks? Why don't you come and work for me? And it's happened more than once. So I appreciate what you're saying. It's I, I attribute it to all these kids. These kids have drive and I appreciate them.

Kurt Neiswender: 26:03

Yeah, the now that I'm also teaching and practicing at the same time, you know, here in Michigan, you know, we're a different part of the country. There's definitely different demographics, but I, I would agree. We still have, you know, we wouldn't necessarily have the most say, diverse because it's Michigan, but we do. I mean, But also, because we are Michigan, you know, we are home to, you know, 1 of the biggest or the biggest Middle Eastern population outside outside of the Middle East. So there are, I do, you know, I still get to engage with a lot of of the same sort of 1st generation college students. And I would agree that they, you know, they are. Are some of the hardest workers that have the most sort of focus and, and, and drive to that. And then also, you know, I, I, you know, not to steal any thunder, but it's more of the thunder of the students. It's a or put the emphasis on them is that the it's always exciting when they win a scholarship or get a job, you know, right out the gate. And I feel like the the proud parent, even though I'm like, I'm not, you know, it's like, go forth, take what, you know, and those are, those are my, I guess my point about getting a little sentimental about those things is that is this, well, speaking of cohorts, right? The students that are. Studying architecture right now, and maybe, you know, probably many majors, many degree paths, they don't necessarily have the patience to wait for that, the, the, this sort of drawn out experience path. They're like, okay, let me go, right? Like, let's go, let's figure it out. And maybe it comes from a little bit of like the influence of the tech industry where it's sort of like the fail fast. But just keep moving, which I know I'm not against. I mean, I think the idea is just continually target and, and, and, you know, attack something and then see, you know, see what comes out and then just keep moving in a positive direction. I hope that the energy that this, this younger generation of architecture students specifically. Can can take hold of the profession that we will have been, you know, not eventually, but we will be, you know, handing over to them because, you know, we can't work forever. So we have to be able to transfer this knowledge set and then let them move on and take it in the direction, you know, whether we can predict it or not.

Illya: 28:49

I don't know. There's some technology out there. I think it's going to allow us to work for thousands of years.

Jamie: 28:54

I mean, Kurt's kind of a fatalist sometimes. Like, you know, like, but usually, usually, usually I'm the one who like gets like, Jamie, your sketches feel very dystopian, you know? But yeah, like Kurt, I don't know where, we got dark there for a minute. But no, I think I hope

Kurt Neiswender: 29:11

you don't take it the wrong way. I mean, no, no, I think,

Jamie: 29:16

yeah, I am teasing. Of course. I mean, it's all love. But it's, you know, I think that, you know, as you guys, I mean, I'm not teaching right now, so it's like, I don't have that. You know, so I, I get to live vicariously through both of you and then when you pull me in for a jury or, you know, you know, discussion which I'm happy to do. I, I always enjoy but I think that it's, it's really evident. I mean, I've got a, you know, I've got a sophomore in college right now, you know who's trying to figure it out and. And as you say, Kurt, I think that, you know, this generation, you know, does have, you know, kind of a lot of different influences on them as each generation, you know, does. But I think that it's, I think what's, what's, you know, what's not being talked about as much that I think is sort of of interest, you know, to me, and I'm sort of waiting for somebody to kind of, you know, latch on to it is this idea of, you know, what happens when those Gen Xers in architecture, Who actually stayed in architecture? You know, actually, you know, where everybody realizes that that it's not that they're the glue, but they're that they're still there and that they're they're of a mindset already. They've always been of a mindset of collaboration. And now you've got a generation in sort of Gen Z that is really Yeah. You know, wants to collaborate. They're, they're, they're, they're born to collaborate. They don't necessarily know how to do it. They don't have all the pieces figured out. But they, they are a generation that is so, could be so transformative. And I think they will be. They will be. You know, that, that I think that like, to your point, Ilya, I want to stay on the ride. Like, I don't want to get off. Like, I want, I want to see where they go. Because I mean, like, I'm working. He's giving me

Illya: 30:58

hope. These guys. Yeah. I mean, I've have such utter hope. Yeah. I mean, I've,

Jamie: 31:01

I've got one like in my studio right now, and it's just, it's such a pleasure to work with them, you know? Yeah. And just to see that their, their worldview is so different, so different. And, but at the same time, it, there is still that level of collaborate. I can still teach things and I can also learn a lot of things.

Illya: 31:21

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jamie: 31:22

And, and that, that's why it's like, that keeps me going, you know, that's, you know. Did you say a thousand years? Like, I'm not sure about a thousand, but I'm not. Yeah, I was

Illya: 31:32

just joking this, that from, from AI to, to what, whatever holds, holds you in in this, in this ability to keep working. But I agree with you that these kids, they, they give me hope, but I, I just like in all my work with indigenous communities I'm a, I'm, I'm a guest and when I say facilitator to my students, I try to recognize to them and be very honest that they are powerful. They're powerful before I step into the room and all I'm doing is trying to shape that power into serious tools that you can really make stuff with and, and that. I don't think is, is ever going to change that recognizing that power of this next generation is, is just something that I hope the industry really, really understands that. These, these guys will, are already leaders having them the ability to lead and just opening the door, they're ready to go there.

Jamie: 32:25

Well, you know, and it's, it's not, I mean, I'm not trying to be political about it, you know, by any means by sort of phrasing it in this way. I'm just not sure how to phrase it otherwise, but it's like, you know, when, when we, when folks now sort of refer to culture wars or how, how people are viewing a generation of people who are, you know, You know, have grown up in a certain way and the way their worldview is and etc, etc, etc. My whole take is, is that yes, they've grown up in a certain way that but you know, the advantage, it's like I'm, I'm the glass, I mean, as much as I am dystopian in my sketches, I am the glass full guy. And it's, I'm looking at that as, Their worldview is so, is not necessarily potentially so different than mine, but it's that they are more as a generation, you know that they are more open to things that they don't understand. Yeah, fearless. And, you know, there's a fearlessness to that. I love it. You know, and, and. If you can, if you can, as sort of that mature designer in me, if I can harness that, you know, if I can harness that in a way where I can, I can help them, you know, and it's you know, like if, if you, if you are coming into a community and that community doesn't feel like they've been listened to for a long time, or it's like, I mean, I was told in one, in one project is like, you know, you weren't the first one to come in and ask me those questions. You know, and I'm like, well, all I can tell you is I'm not going anywhere. There you go. No, like I'm going to, I'm going to probably ask you those questions respectfully. Hopefully you'll give me, you know, the same answers or better answers, but you know, that we're also going to continue this conversation. And that, and with the knowledge that, you know, you're going to trust that I'm not, I'm not going to leave. You know, until we move this whole thing forward, and I think that, you know, that's an opportunity for me to recognize where I am in my career or what community I'm working in. But if I'm able to share that with a generation that is more inherently open, you know, to engage that. You know, in a, like I say, in a fearless way, where they're fearless because they, they're like, that's, I need to be here. They, they recognize they need to be there. They also might be scared to death because they don't know what the hell's coming next. Because they can't see, that's the thing is, this generation cannot see around corners. They can't. They're just, they're just, they have so many, you know, hang ups in that kind of respect, but I think those things are outweighed

Illya: 35:11

by all the

Jamie: 35:11

pluses, you know, and yeah,

Illya: 35:13

the pluses definitely outweigh, you know, I don't think we could see around the corner at that age either, but the fearlessness is what sets them apart because they and, and something you said, Kurt, you know, trying and failing and keep trying and trying and trying this, this ability, you know, they will not be defeated. The, the, the notion of a loss seems to be yeah, it's just a speed bump. We're going to keep going. That, that fearlessness. So I wouldn't equate it to drive. I just, to the longevity of just a continued effort. My gosh. So that's why I'm so hopeful with the, with these folks these kids they are, they are my fuel, man. I, I, I just can't get enough of just hearing them. seeing the way they interact with design and all aspects of culture. Yeah, I guess almost as much as, as the projects that I work on with these, these with indigenous people. And to your point Jamie, indigenous people or communities on the front lines of people that you work with and that I work with and, and, and others out there they have not been listened to. And there's always an assumption. I'm going to go in and save that community. And that's the wrong assumption. That community already knows the problems they have. They are powerful, they're self actualized, and they know what the solution sets they have and being able to listen, translate that. So, it turns into a product or something that they recognize and see in themselves is the most satisfying part of the work because that then turns into the key that unlocks funding. That helps them actualize the ideas they already had. And I tell ya, if more architects knew how to do that, or really knew that work existed. You would have more work than you could possibly imagine for the rest of your lives because it's needed everywhere. And that's that's, that's how I equate this conversation about these kids with that kind of work. That

Kurt Neiswender: 37:09

is the work, you know, I echo that just briefly from, from being here in Flint. Right? I mean, there's a lot of the same in the sense, you know, the sort of. People think they have the magic bullet that's going to save this or that aspect of the people of Flint. I found since I'm not originally from here, but have been here for 12 years, you know, by listening and being right without trying to prescribe something ever since I've been here. You know, moved into the city and live and work here is that these people are extremely resilient. Otherwise, they still they wouldn't still be here.

Illya: 37:52

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 37:52

And that they're the way to use the tools as an architect. Right? The things that were trained. design buildings or coordinate trades, things like that, work with construction doesn't necessarily look like the book definition of how to practice architecture, much like I imagine what your work is with indigenous cultures abroad and locally. Or, you know, statewide stateside and, but I think then sort of tying in again, this idea of like the future architects that we're teaching is their ability to sort of recognize those, those distinct identities and, and find a way to speak to it. And, and there is no one size fits all. Or, or one system, one, one methodology that you apply and go project A, B, C, D, and keep going. And, and I found that, you know, maybe I don't want to, I'm not critiquing any local peers of mine, but

Jamie: 39:06

there's no shade.

Kurt Neiswender: 39:07

No, no, no, I can't. I mean, but no, no, my point is preemptively, but you know, sometimes the projects that I get. You know, wouldn't necessarily, they're not going to necessarily always make the cover of an architecture magazine, but they've improved the quality of either life or business for that client because I helped them solve a problem, which, you know, is, is wading through the, the, the bureaucracy through permitting and change of use or, you know, change of ownership, rehabbing old buildings. So it's like, so I'm not trying to toot my own horn. As much as I'm trying to build upon the thing, I guess, to make a point to it is, is, you know, these conversations between the 3 of us here today and, and many of our friends circling back to the starting point of our colleagues from the young architects forum is there are so many ways. Through this profession are say, non traditional, but still involve all of the tools and skill set that we've learned through school and practice that still provide that presence. And I think you're so to put a pin in what I'm saying, use all the all the jargon is. Ever since I met both of you, but Ilya being our special guest has inspired me to, to not rest on sort of norms and really kind of follow the passions that I always had, that I never, or didn't always follow. Tap into and, and just seeing what you've been doing through those different trajectories of your own, you know, practice and then into your, your speaking now and you're sort of what's the, what's the word that you use when influencing is one, but

Jamie: 41:23

yeah, it is an influencer. Like, like he needs a tick tock if he doesn't have a tick tock but it's a climate tick tock or, or it's just a, or it's just a, where in the world is Ilya tick tock? Like, like I'm telling you,

Illya: 41:36

the clock is ticking.

Jamie: 41:38

Yeah. The, you know, I know. Hey, you know,

Illya: 41:42

well, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of guys. And I appreciate that Kurt, because I've always said that, that, that you really have to follow your passions in this. If you truly love what you're doing. Success comes to you and how you define your own success. I sleep well at night because just like you said, you help people. I help people. And you know, the, the gains in the studio and, and it's security and expansion follow because we believe in what we do. We believe in the ethos of, of really giving greater voice and visibility to frontline communities. We practice that every day. We're very selective in our projects that really they have to ma match that ethos. And now that we're at that point, it really does work. But what I really wanna circle back to is we talked about this fearlessness, and you know what guys, when we were talking about the YAF in our cohort, what gave me fearlessness was us all working together as the YAF. And so if we can, we mirror what this current generation has. They've got the full deck of cards with fearlessness. We did that through our cohort at the YAF that we fed off of each other. We helped each other. We became fearless to make these decisions because, you know the practice was not always that way. It was always, there was always struggles early on and everyone experiences that, but to really have the passion to stick with what you're doing and getting there. It's proof positive that this community that we have formed and shaped to the greater AIA and, and our cohort really make a big difference. But yeah that's, that's where I think these things tie together. So I'm gonna take that pin right back out, man.

Jamie: 43:22

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's, that's all, all fair. So I, I know that we, we try and talk about the coffee. You did mention that you do with coffee and the cream and that's totally okay. I'm just going to tell you, I'm going to just drop this right here is like, this might be in your future. So yeah, yeah. So, so yes, in fact Curt and I have a podcast, but we also have like an actual coffee a collaboration with Ruthless. They are a purveyor of original Flint coffee. So this comes out of Flint, Michigan. They love the original artwork. Tonight, you know, today, this afternoon, this evening I am finishing pot of Dr. Congo, Kurt.

Kurt Neiswender: 44:11

Is that the last, is that the last of it?

Jamie: 44:13

Yeah, this is the last of it, but it's so good. It's so, so good. And but I, I did, I did want to kind of transition us to a sketch. We picked one today that Ilya, you might be surprised at. But I think, but I think you'll appreciate just so that we can sort of just, Chat about sort of all the things. This is an all the things sketch, right? I mean, it's

Kurt Neiswender: 44:35

let me zoom in a tiny bit here. Nice. Yeah. This is usually the moment at which Kurt says, I really love the dystopian.

Illya: 44:49

Is that when this usually comes up?

Kurt Neiswender: 44:51

Well, in, in sketches that have some of the motifs in the background that you see here with These sort of abstract forms. You mean the broken airplane, airplane wings or that? Yeah. I mean, it's interpretive, right? That's the dystopian or protopian. I like that one.

Jamie: 45:12

Yeah. Oh, I know. Kurt introduced me to this other term. I haven't gotten used to it yet. But I think Elliot, yeah. One of the things that I sort of was curious about, cause it's like, I know that you know, even in your own family, right, you've got this whole kind of art and dance and. You know, how, you know, you talked a little bit about sort of the origin of the, the, the first version of the firm and sort of your practice in New York. But you know, when you see sketches like this or sort of things like this as a jumping off point how are other arts sort of influencing your, you know, your design, your work more as a designer or, or just as an architect in general?

Illya: 45:50

Yeah, great question. You know I alluded to it before that you know, architecture is a reflection of culture. And when, when I was entering architecture school, you know, my, my father and, and mother were very much into the arts. You know, my father was a he was an engineer, but a concert pianist. Right. He wrote his own you know, he was classically trained after the war and grew up in Germany and, and, but decided to go into engineering. And so there's always this sort of dichotomy of, of everyone in my family is into the arts yet for practical sake because of an immigrant family, no, you have to do something that secures your future in terms of, you know, job and money. It came to me and, and architecture is the greatest of all the seven arts. It is the assembly of all of the arts together as a reflection of culture. So I, I seem to be the 1 in my family that could synthesize and, and live out that dream of being someone who is practicing the art of architecture and realizing how you have a, you know, in my father's eyes, a secure family, you know, a job that will, will really propel you forward because it's not exactly hanging on, on just the arts. So, that's kind of where, where that comes from. When I see this, though, you know, it reminds me of the you know, the old the back of the MoMA before they did the renovation, there were a series of pools and plinths that had sculptures and this looks like a Rodin that is placed on those plinths with reflective elements into the water pool. That are running across there and then, of course, there are various things there. And so when I see this, it, it immediately transports me there or to a similar kind of a setting with this contemporary monolithic sculptures with reflecting pools set in a. Juxtaposed with all of these beautiful green features and whether that's a statue or, or an actual person, I see it as a, almost like a bronze statue, just catching all of the light. You know?

Jamie: 47:59

No, I, I love that. I mean, and that's the thing is, I mean, this is, this is my like selfish moment, you know, oftentimes in the, in the podcast, like Kurt and I will talk about, you know, my sketches and and, and, and in some cases it's, it's. Me listening to somebody else sort of describe kind of what they're seeing. And, and sometimes it, it completely, you know, elicits a response from them that I'm not expecting. It's very personal or, or reflective of someplace they've been or a story or something like that. And that's always wonderful, you know? And, and so what you're describing too, is it, it's, you know, it, it, it ties that whole thing about. You know who we are as people and kind of, and kind of why we do the things that we do and sort of are not necessarily, you know, you know, all the reasons we do things. But I mean, I think that perspective that we're sort of given kind of early in life and then the choices that we make afterwards and then ultimately what those influences sort of, you know, you know, how we, yeah. Continue to see and analyze things as designers and i think that that's sort of our superpower is that we're listening to and absorbing all this information from the people in the places that we engage but then it's you know i like to think of it as Our willingness to try and synthesize that try and find a way forward from that try and find something out of that that we can then in turn share and then hopefully it becomes a sort of reciprocal loop you know and and so some of that is an art. You know, and some of that's in architecture or problem solving. So the way you sort of describe this is like, when you said Rodin, it's like, that's the thing is that a lot of for me, when I traveled to Europe the first time and was in Paris and went to the Rodin museum, I was just dumbstruck. You know, just, you know, just dumbstruck by it. And I always had appreciated sculpture. You know, I always appreciated, you know, art and varying forms and whatnot. My mom, you know, had a real appreciation for art. But, and not an artist herself by any stretch. But it, it's you know, I think that those kind of moments for me kind of always sort of resonate, and then I find them find myself going back to them, you know, at certain points and I and I realize those influences on my own work. But then the beauty is, is when they get some new influences and sort of how those start to integrate

None: 50:31

and

Jamie: 50:32

how those kind of figure into things. So, yeah, it's I, I, I like that you, you immediately wanted to set this in a place that, that was I, I, that's, that's a treasure for me. Thank you.

Kurt Neiswender: 50:45

No, you're welcome. To throw in two cents from my perspective is the well, maybe some of the theme of what we've talked about today, right. Sort of helping people. But people, right, is, you know, Jamie does, you know, we're all trained, right, to understand scale from a human proportion and why human figures lined up in architect sketches. And so Jamie will, but Jamie takes it one step further in, in the sort of what, what do you call those life life drawing kind of poses from time to, I mean, you know, in this case, it's not necessarily. Specific sketching session with an actual model, but the human form, right, that shows up in Jamie sketches in contrast or compliment to the various backgrounds that he puts them against, I think, always has an interesting commentary on our. Our human condition, and I mean, this is sort of subtext or definitely me reading into to the sketches a lot. But based on what we've talked about a lot today is I guess, I can't think of another way to put it, but the sort of fragility of. Human life, you know, and, and, and how the, the vulnerability of this particular, you know, nude figure, semi nude figure against the background that it's drawn with kind of, it's sort of driven by all the discussion we've had today.

Jamie: 52:31

Well, and it's, it's funny, it's, I don't think I've ever said this to Kurt. But it's sort of, as he was describing it, it, it, it dawned on me. So when we're in architecture school, right, all of us went there. It doesn't matter where you went to school. They all, you know, at some point talked about a lot of the same things early on, like somebody probably used the word figure and field or figure field, you know, and when, when I heard that for the first time, I thought of a literal figure, like a human figure. And, and so it was because I wasn't coming from like an architecture perspective. You know, with my education, more of an artist. And it sort of, I think what, I didn't sort of, you know, make a lot of those connections to later in life, but it sort of dawned on me that, you know, a lot of the times the way that I'm looking at, you know, these quick sketches in my sketchbook that I returned to quite a bit as sort of a general theme is, it's a way for me. To you know, kind of find sort of find sort of the narrative that Kurt's sort of talking about and it's whether it's, you know, trying to push an idea of a particular place, or it's an idea of sort of, you know, a figure against sort of this abstraction. And yeah, it's, it's just, it's interesting to kind of hear it kind of with these other themes that both of you sort of, you know, found in a sketch like this. And I don't think either one of them is necessarily wrong. I think both of them are, you know, that's, that's the beauty of some of these exercises you know, and for me as a, as a creative, it's getting stuff down on the page. It's working through it. And sort of, you know, and staying the course kind of, you know, to, you know, what Ilya was saying about, can I, you know, not quitting. But yeah you know, I, I, I appreciate both of your comments. I think it's, you know, some great perspectives on a, on a sketch that was sort of fun and, and actually, like I said, you know, a lot of these come out relatively quick, you know, on purpose. So,

Illya: 54:38

yeah, it's, it's, it's really good. There's a, I like, I like what Kurt said about, About the figure. I like what you're talking about is that your first inkling of what a figure is before I went to because when I before I went to architecture school, I was very much into painting and sculpting and sketching a lot of sketching. And what I was told was when I was reading, I think it was was a quote from Picasso. You know, I could be wrong, but Picasso said the hardest things to draw are human hands. And I remember reading that or it was Picasso or was it was one of the great masters. So from age 12 on the way through like 16 or 17, all I was sketched were hands. And I can sketch hands perfectly and then I could sketch hands holding things especially really delicate things like flowers and plants and things like that. And I could just because it was almost like a challenge. Oh, that's the hardest thing. And if this master of the arts said, this is the hardest thing, if I master the hardest thing, Oh, what does that say about my potential? And you know, you're thinking about that as like, you know, a 12 or 13 year old kid, but it really drove me to pick up a sketchbook all the time and draw all the time. And it, but it was, it was that very narrow subject matter. But when I got to, to architecture school, boy, did it pay dividends. I could sketch just about anything.

Jamie: 56:04

Well, and that's, and that's the thing is you lean into this sort of, you know, inner monologue, you know, and this, you know, these, these inner rules that you, you place on the sketch. And and it becomes kind of a wonderful when you, when you look at it that way and sort of back yourself out. And that's, I think, one of the things that we, we try and do with at least this podcast is that, you know, we, we talk about a lot of different cultural events and, and you know, and bringing people on like yourself to talk about kind of career paths and kind of where they are as influencers to, you know, to our work and to the profession at large. I think that it's also, you know, looking at sort of a simple act, like a sketchbook and and sitting down with it for yourself and kind of figuring out the things that you need to work on and and that you can do sort of as a daily ritual and, and that it be, you know, productive in a way that is, is super exciting for yourself. And then, and then Obviously, you know, I like to share my sketches and talk about them. But yeah, this is, this is something I think that we appreciate, you know talking about and that you're able to kind of engage, you know, in, in a variety of different ways with us. Oh,

Illya: 57:13

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, sketching is, is essential, especially in these engagements with communities. Because you hear a lot of this, not like that, like this. And when you hear that, you know that you're in a dialogue and they're picking up an instrument of whether it's a kid with a Crayola or whatever it is, but you're working on the same sheet. And if I'm working on the same sheet with someone and we're trying to explain something together graphically. And when I hear that, no, no, not like that, like this, I know that they're beginning to express the deep solution sets. They have for their own communities and it just becomes a pleasure. They aren't beautiful collaborative drawings, but in, in a, in aesthetic way, but they're so rich that, that are the basis, the platform, the foundation for creative purpose. Oh my God. Yeah. No, I think we need to tie it in.

Jamie: 58:15

Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, that's the creative act, right? Is that, and it's, and it's not, I mean, the gatekeeping of the creative act is. It's garbage, you know you know, we don't, we don't need to be doing that. You know, the, the fact that we're comfortable with it as architects and designers is because we've been trained to become comfortable with it. And, but then, like you said, is then, you know, then the real superpower, the real influence, the real opportunity for us as a practice and as a profession And as individuals is to realize that engagement, you know, with, with those communities and having those dialogues and, and letting them partake of the process is that's where the real stuff gets exciting. For everybody, for everybody, for everybody.

Illya: 59:06

Yeah. A hundred percent. That is the joy, the joy of the work. I, I, I almost want to just get, get at it right now.

Jamie: 59:15

We do. This is a group hug moment. This is the group hug moment in the podcast. So but you know thank you again, Ilya. This is been fabulous. We appreciate you being on the road, but still find time to join us

Kurt Neiswender: 59:31

guys.

Jamie: 59:32

Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 59:33

Yes. Thanks. I reiterate that because, yeah, we've been extremely generous. We've kept you a long, a long time away from dinner. So we will let you go. Give me, give me a few seconds to queue up our outro, but sure.

Illya: 59:52

Well guys, thanks. Keep doing the work you're doing. You, you, you can, we can be the change we want to see in the world if we just collectively keep doing what we're doing. And I firmly believe that. And then, and I appreciate your friendship. Always, always will.

Jamie: 1:00:06

Thanks again. We'll see you in DC.

Illya: 1:00:11

You can count on it.