Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Hey Jamie, how is it going?

Jamie: 0:35

Good, how are you Kurt?

Kurt Neiswender: 0:38

Doctor, Doctor Dog Owner over here, that's how I'm doing. Anyway, we were in the green room just talking about pet, pet parenthood and how to, how to watch the signs. Anyway, I'm, I'm doing all right. You know, it's a, it's a, it's another

Jamie: 0:57

week. You seem a little bit brighter today than we've, we've, we've recorded a few times here, folks. In the last, we've accelerated our recording timetable. And we even, can I say it? Am I

Kurt Neiswender: 1:10

allowed to say it? I think so. We

Jamie: 1:13

have permissions. Yeah, we have permissions. So it's not that we're taking the podcast on the road. It's that we're actually going to be guests on another podcast.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:24

We, we didn't have to get on the road for that one. Yeah. We use our technology

Jamie: 1:30

now, still in, still in Austin and in Flint. But it was, it was a really, you know, I, I, I will say I was, I was honored to be, to be asked and you know, for both of us to be able to do it together it was, it was pretty neat. We've, we've done that before, but this one was certainly special. And unexpected. So are we allowed to say any more or is that it? Is that all we want to say?

Kurt Neiswender: 1:55

Well, I thought the permissions extended all the way to say what show

Jamie: 2:01

we were on, but yeah, and, and that we're going to be, we're going to be the first guests for the next season,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:09

you know, what will happen is then she'll. She'll reshuffle the order and then we'll wind up being not first, but I mean, not, not that I'm, I'm assuming that's like presuming too much, but that's,

Jamie: 2:24

that's, you are kind of getting a little, you are getting a little negative on me here. Like we, we, we started the show super positive. Everybody was right there with us. But yes, friend of the podcast she has been on with us. From California herself and her podcast Evelyn

Kurt Neiswender: 2:45

Lee. So yeah, practice practice, excuse me, practice part of the practice of architecture umbrella, but yeah, so it was, yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was. Interesting conversation. A lot of questions that went in directions that I didn't think they would. And, you know, some subjects we hadn't really, we never really touched on, on this podcast or kind of heard, you know, on, on Evelyn's

Jamie: 3:19

podcast. So, well, yeah, I think it, it's, it sparked some really great conversations. I mean, you know, we've, we've known Evelyn for a long time and I think the three of us had fun kind of reminiscing about. How long we've known each

Kurt Neiswender: 3:30

other. You're trying to count the years. Yeah.

Jamie: 3:32

Try to figure it out. Yeah. I might've been responsible for doing the math. Cause we know how Kurt is with the math. But yeah, no, it was fantastic.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:39

You handle math. I'll handle spelling.

Jamie: 3:41

Yeah. Thank you. There we go. We divided up the responsibilities. It took us this

3:46

long

Kurt Neiswender: 3:46

to figure it out. Six seasons. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Goodness. Well, let's not do any more math. Yeah. Cause I think it's, it's going to be like Evelyn's eighth season. But we won't, we tease, you know, she, she started after us, but she's eclipsed us seasonally. But, and you know, but it's it's a definite, it's a season is a season. Well, and it's, it's

Jamie: 4:11

one to be a year. Yeah, and it's a podcast that both of us listen to, so you know, we, we, we love her work and, and, and what that that brand has been able to do in terms of bringing together a bunch of different voices. So, to be asked to be 1 of the voices for this next season is it was an honor

Kurt Neiswender: 4:29

likewise. And then we also, worked on a thing for this podcast too. So forthcoming episode one 45. So, but yeah, here we are in one 46, the, on the live stream, just getting the hang of getting the intro down, you know, again, you know, you never know when, when Kurt's on it or not on it.

Jamie: 4:58

Some days it's the buttons. It's just, we got to, I think what I'm going to do, I'm going to,

Kurt Neiswender: 5:03

I kid you not.

Jamie: 5:05

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, make labels for you, like a, like a, like a cheat sheet guide, and it's gonna just, like, put arrows to certain keys on your keyboard, and, and we're gonna go.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:20

I don't I'll, I will try anything.

Jamie: 5:25

You're like Jamie, that's not the way this works.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:29

I was going to go somewhere like that, but I figured, no, you know what?

Jamie: 5:36

Continuous improvement. You're like, just let the guy, just let the guy have his, his, you know, fantasy about the buttons. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:47

I love how you you're visualizing the, the workflow. But yeah,

Jamie: 5:53

but in getting back to the podcast and this current episode, 1 46, I am very curious because you did mention in the lead up from the last episode that there might be some gifts in the mail for me related to coffee, which is very generous of you. Thank you. But in the spirit of that. What's in your cup?

Kurt Neiswender: 6:14

Well, I, I have had to go pick up some more rootless. So I've got the, the good old damn fine OG, one of the OGs original. OC original coffees from rootless. So damn fine cup of coffee. Like our favorite show, twin peaks agent Cooper. Yes. So that's, yeah, it's, it's one of their, it's one of my favorites. So there's, you know, can't go

Jamie: 6:45

wrong. So speaking of agent Cooper. And I think we can probably arrange this because we've talked about it, but we haven't, I think we need to have Jason back on and, and I'm thinking that we probably should, should do it here. I mean, in the next couple episodes, because Twin Peaks day is actually almost upon us. So later next month, it is Twin Peaks day. So I think, I think we, you know, put that in, put that in the notes, note to self. So on

Kurt Neiswender: 7:24

the to do I will I will yeah, and we'll find a little time, you know, well Well, I guess before I ask you about the coffee that you you're drinking aside from the forthcoming gifted coffee I am Have I told you that my My vice, my television vice, lately, as of late, has become true crime. You did mention the true crime. You know, I mentioned that in front of Danielle on a day where she, and she was like, well, you're just basic. She called me basic. Basic something, but I'm trying to keep it PG. Or G rated, I don't know.

Jamie: 8:14

Well, you did when you did sort of, I mean, you did mention it to me, you know, that, you know, you do have a pension when you have some extra time and no one's around. You, you, you tend to move over to the true crime podcast, true crime kind of genre. Yeah. Documentaries. So, which was a surprise to me. I mean, I will admit, but then you were like, don't tell Danielle. And then, and then you go, you know. As you should, you went and told

Kurt Neiswender: 8:48

her Well, you know how you can't avoid it because the thing will say continue watching.

Jamie: 8:54

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 8:56

But I only brought that up because I need to find less time for that and more time for Twin Peaks. I gotta, I gotta finish. I still gotta finish season two. And

Jamie: 9:10

And start season three

Kurt Neiswender: 9:12

and the movie.

Jamie: 9:13

Yeah, that's what it, that's, that's what we need to do is we need, we've talked about doing the, the, the live video like mystery science three theater 3000

Kurt Neiswender: 9:29

of twin peaks. We could do that somehow, although the thing is, I got to figure out where, where it exists. Watch. But so anyway, so we'll put a pin in that one. Okay. Okay. And so then what do you what's in your coffee cup?

Jamie: 9:46

Well I in a in the spirit of impulse buys, you know, because sometimes that happens. I, you know, it's like when you go to the store and do, you know, impulse buy, you understand what I mean by impulse buy. Okay, good. Well, you had this kind of blank, this kind of blank look and yeah, we just talked about pretzels for, for days.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:08

So, yeah, the longest time. Yeah. Silly me, silly me.

Jamie: 10:14

But yes, impulse buy community coffee. So kind of like maybe, maybe this whole New Orleans thing that we were reminiscing about from 2015, sort of in my brain, but the bag just sort of, sort of shot out, spoke to me, but the bag itself. Was it's their special edition king cake coffee.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:37

Oh, well, that's, oh, we're getting close. Yeah. So calendar

Jamie: 10:42

wise king cake. Yeah. So king cake coffee. And I was like, Ooh, that's kind of exciting. Like what's, what's, what, what's the flavor notes on this guy. And it's the cinnamon. We've talked about cinnamon. On the podcast before you know, with coffee, sort of that chicory fake flavor sometimes that you get to and some do it really, really well and some not so much, but I will, I have to say that they, they pair their cinnamon in this coffee with sort of like a vanilla flavor and. For a flavored coffee. It's pretty good.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:19

Good. That's good. I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued. And actually Jamie's on top of all the, what do you call it? The calendar events, right? You've got King, you know Mardi Gras coming around the corner, Twin Peaks day, King K coffee. I like that. Yeah. And then our reminiscent flashback to The young architects forum, 2014, 14

Jamie: 11:51

and 15, we talked about, but 15 was been years and 15. So nine years ago,

Kurt Neiswender: 12:02

it was almost a couple of weeks away from nine years. But anyway, you're going to get me all nostalgic again, Jamie. So I'm sorry. Let me before we talk about your skin, sorry.

Jamie: 12:17

Yes.

Kurt Neiswender: 12:18

Thanks a lot. I wanted to. I briefly mentioned this, but we, and we've talked about it in the past couple of weeks on the previous episodes, but I finally got a moment away from true crime pretzels and grading homework. I was able to scan the sketches that my students have been creating.

Jamie: 12:40

Ooh, it's like a treat for Jamie. This is like

Kurt Neiswender: 12:43

a special prize. I'm going to do like a broad, you know, a wide screen shot here, so, you know, for those not expecting their sketch to be shown on the podcast, because some of them actually do watch and listen. But this week, this was from two weeks ago, and I had them sketch Richard Serra's, Talk to lips is, you know, an image of one of his sculptures. I think it's actually from their installation at the D a beacon in New York, right? And so there's, there's a window with some light and some of these are a little upside down. So, you know, apologies for the.

Jamie: 13:26

That's on the scanner, not on the

Kurt Neiswender: 13:27

student. You're right, yeah. It's the user error in the scanning side of things. And, and, you know, the course I'm teaching, if I, if I haven't mentioned it before, I can't remember. Acoustics, Electrical and Illumination Systems is a lecture course in the mornings. And I've been doing this sketching thing on Wednesdays, the second, you know, the second day of the The week or, you know, the 2nd session of the week for this class just to get their brains working a little bit and hand I, you know, getting their. Getting, getting engaged with something a little more analog when they're in front of the computer so much and using the sketch and also relating it to the content of the class. So we've been talking about daylight at the moment up to this part. So here you go. These are pretty, I'm, I'm. Pleasantly surprised and impressed with the variety of of the sketched examples.

Jamie: 14:27

What do you think? And this is a 10 minute sketch, you said,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:31

or I kind of. I haven't put a timer on them necessarily, but basically there's 55 students. It's pretty big class. Okay. So I give him the prompt and then I start going through the attendance. So I start, you know, checking names off. And so, you know, that takes about 5 or 10 minutes or so. And then. I let them work a little bit on it while I'm kind of getting the eating pretzels. Yeah. Eat some pretzels, get, get the rest of the content together for the class. And then I, I, I basically wait for when the class is over, then they come bring it down, you know, but they're not, they kind of, they, some, some of them will doodle a little longer, but they pretty much take about 10 or 15

Jamie: 15:18

minutes with it. So, so you're hoping that they're taking notes and listening to your lecture. Well, you've given them the opportunity to sketch. What do you think I would be doing in that class during that time?

Kurt Neiswender: 15:33

Making

Jamie: 15:33

great sketches. Probably, yeah. You would have like opened the floodgates and Jamie just like continues to No, I would listen, I'd listen to your, I'd listen to your lecture. I'm, I'm teasing. But no, these are, this is, this is like a treat. Thank you for sharing this. I, I'm, I'm excited. I love, you know, grids and drawings like this and seeing it. You know, where everybody this reminds me of, you know, arcing tober, you know, where you've got, you know, a prompt that everybody's kind of working from the same prompt and everybody has a different vantage point. And even to what you were describing, you know, with Sarah's work. It's these sort of sculptures are intended to be inhabited to a certain degree, and I think it's a, I think it's a great way for you to kind of get at the subject matter of your course, sort of daylighting, sort of lighting an object and, and how it sort of changes that object. And you can sort of see how each student is trying to figure out. It's it's like the the idea of almost like a still life so you're given you know you're in that art class and you've got sort of strange objects sitting on a table that you might not have ever arranged yourself that way your teacher has arranged it that way so you know in your case you're sort of creating this prompt for them and arranging their subject matter but then each of them is able to kind of take it and run with it. And, and that's, that's always sort of the beauty for me is you know, the, and what's crazy is like the ones, like in the very middle there you know, ironically, you know, that are both, you know, someone getting out that, that blue pen and you know, that's, that's, that's bold. I love it. I love it. I love it. You know, someone's sketching with a blue, you know, note taking pen, you know, but caution. You know, do not be that person who picks up the red pen and tries to do sketches. That's just wrong. There's like,

Kurt Neiswender: 17:41

there's something. It's too, too, too strongly associated with correcting. Yeah,

Jamie: 17:48

there's something not quite right. You know, when, when you kind of go that route, but the blue pen and even amongst people who do a lot of sketching, you know, you will see that sort of like, almost like a I don't like there's like, there's a level of admiration for those who sketch well with like a, like, not poor in the sense that it's like bad, like the sketch, but like a poor implement like that, where like that implement is intended for you to take notes. You know, to, to write down a bunch of stuff, it's a, you know, a cheap blue pen and they're disposable in a sense, but to pick that up and do a sketch with it, you know, is bold in, in a good way, in the absolute best way.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:33

So tool that you have that's available

Jamie: 18:38

on you. Yeah, and don't be afraid, you know, and what's nice is that both of those two sketches just looking at him here on the screen, you know, both students, though, using the blue pen approach their sketches absolutely differently for the same prompt.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:56

And I forgot the one extra challenge was to do it in contour line, start it in contour before they started hatching. But cause it, it was basically like a a re a reboot of when I was a student and we actually at the time in LA at the Geffen Contemporary, there were some torqued ellipses and I remember distinctly. Being challenged to do, do the sketches that we were, we were all there in the space and, you know, do it with contour lines. And so I wish I'm sure if I dug hard enough, I could find that sketchbook anyway. So I, I, I, I kind of rehashed a familiar theme from our early days as a, you know, because it's, it's an evergreen kind of topic or question, right? So, you know, right. Well, I mean, try and doing

Jamie: 20:02

contour line. You know, and, and for those in Texas, I mean, there's some great Sarah work both in Dallas, there's a good piece in Dallas at the Nasher and then and then there's one you know, natural sculpture garden by Renzo piano. And, and then there's also a piece by Sarah at the Fort Worth contemporary or the, what's the official name, the modern art museum of Fort Worth next to the Kimball next to the Kimball by to that one. So you know, and, and, and both are very interesting enough, both very, very different works. But yeah, I think, I think that's a great exercise. I mean, that's a, and that's a challenge because in, it is about the form, it, it is about the contour. It is trying to strike the idea of how do you render that quickly and get it right scale wise or that and also sort of the vantage point of you as the viewer those sort of torqued forms but then once you've got it and you've you know it can be you can almost like put pencil down and say got it. You know, I've got that torqued form, but then decide to add in the shade, add in the shadow, realize there's a lot more nuance to the object that you're seeing. It's not in the detail of the form itself but it's about how the light is playing on the surface of that object. You know, you know, that's a, that's a fun exercise. I love it.

Kurt Neiswender: 21:34

I appreciate your feedback, and I will continue to use that. Class, class after class to keep, keep the the energy up and encourage them. I, I think I'm getting some, some general positive feedback from it. So I think, I think we're on the right track still. I did, I did, however, forget, I, I've been, I mentioned this to you before I've been trying to supply the paper, you know, cause well, a, cause I want it to be pretty uniform so that the grid like kind of comes together. Nice. And then I can scan them. A little easier. And then, you know, lower the, what do they call that? Lower the friction for, for them, the barrier of entry. So, and I forgot the paper this morning. Guess what? Foiled. Yeah. Did the students have any paper of their own? No. Oh, well,

Jamie: 22:33

we try.

Kurt Neiswender: 22:35

So, anyway, let's, you know, maybe it could be fun in conversation to compare to, to your recent sketch how some of these what, what conventions, I suppose, sketching conventions, drawing methods you know, conventions, maybe you sort of reflect. back and forth. And for any of my students that are you know, listening or watching, you know, this is, this is the, this is where the idea came from.

Jamie: 23:06

Well, I mean, I, I, I liked the pairing of this sketch today with the surprise of being able to see your students work. Because this sketch is about, Me musing about a time when I was in school and I've talked about it a little bit is, you know, going to Italy the first time for me as a student was as formative an experience as one can have in, in a journey. You know, for something that I've continued to do, you know, and find myself still doing so it's this, this sketch is of a place that I got to spend four months of my life. The first time around I got, I was fortunate to be able to go back as a grad assistant and teach. So I got to do it a second time, but the first time. You know, it was, this was the center of town. This was the Piazza in, in the, the center of the city. And and it was a walled Tuscan Hilltown that had this loggia in that Piazza at the very, very center of the city, kind of on one of the, the higher, higher levels. But it had a unique feature in it. Which all of us sort of marveled at because we were learning a lot of the tectonics and the geometries of, and the vocabulary for all of these features that we were seeing architecturally. And this particular loggia so a loggia for those who are trying to, you know, kind of equate the term to something they know, and maybe don't So, yeah. You know, have that architecture vocabulary. Think of it like an arcade. So you have a extension of the building where there is a roof over it supported by columns, typically arched entryways. And but it's not. Completely transparent all the way through. So it's, there is sort of a wall. It's usually attached to a building. Sometimes, sometimes they're somewhat freestanding. But you know, that's sort of, you know, very, very traditional Loja. L O G G I a. Oh, spelling. Yeah, I know. Spelling. Jamie's pulling it all out tonight and spilling. And and in and in Italy, one of the best locations to see how the prevalence of that. In an urban environment, I mean, think about instead of having a series of canopies over sidewalks in your small downtown or your urban core of wherever you live, you know, covering the sidewalk and making that that, you know, that public space, that public domain really. Energetic but also protected a sense for the elements and sun, rain, whatever arcades or lodges, you know sort of serve this a similar function, you know, arcades are typically seen as sort of a longer extension along the building. Bologna or Venice, if people have been to Venice or seen images of Venice, there's, there's quite, you know, quite a large series of arcades especially in Piazza San Marco you know, the, the main piazza in, in, in Venice, you know, surrounded on all sides, effectively by arcades and, but in Going back to the sketch, in this particular example, it's a pretty small little loggia, but it has windows on the back that, that mimic the columns and the archway that are on the front side, you know, that are very traditional form, but on the back, there's these sort of punched openings through it, but then there's a kind of a level So almost a guardrail type level of seating and unprotected. So, I mean, you could totally fall out the backside of this thing you know, but, but it was, it was a, it was a beautiful place to and it was also right next to the post office. So if you were you know, and, and there was a market up there as well. So there was, you know, if you, you could go up there and buy your stamps and. You know, get a coffee or, you know, get a snack and oftentimes a lot of us would go up there and kind of read our mail or pen, a letter home or a pen, a postcard home or something like that. And it was just this picturesque vantage point. You know, to kind of to view the valley that this sort of Hilltown, you know, lived in or, you know, settled in. But but then also sort of aspects of the little vignettes of the city. So it was immediately recognizable for me. It's 1 and it's 1 that it's a thing that I've sketched many, many a time. And in this particular case, actually sketched it from memory.

Kurt Neiswender: 28:02

Oh, really? Oh, that was going to be one of my questions. So yeah, the we, we've talked about the, this scene or you know part of, part of Italy that you've been in, been to, you know, through those two, two visits. And now is that in the, in the distance? The tower is that part of the Castel Vecchio or no, am I getting now you're

Jamie: 28:29

mixing up the cities? Yeah. So, no, this is yeah, you know, this is the city that our Texas and his program was centered in. So we were on the train line in between Florence and Rome. Okay. In a city near Rezo got and the, the town we were staying in was cast fiorentino. So the, the, the little Florentine castle so a Walt Walt city. But this, this tower that you're seeing in, you know, through the vignette of the window is part of a church. But, but it, and it's one, you know, there's, you know, even with these walled cities is that there's these elements that sort of start to bridge inside and outside the wall. And you know, from this vantage point, you're actually really close to 1 side of the wall city. Kind of, it's an irregular object because it's. You know, it's built on a mountain. It's built on, you know, this, in the terrain itself. So this, this vantage point also gives you this wonderful view of all the olive orchards and the olive fields that were out that direction.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:43

Well, it's a fantastic little sketch. And, and I was curious about if it was from a photograph or you know internet. You know, something advertisement or search, or, you know, something that popped up that sort of inspired it, but pulling it from memory is, is another great example of, you know, thinking through, you know, the, the idea of a space and, and having been places is, I mean, that's why we, you and I are always encouraging, you know, students and, you know, young designers to go visit it. Places, right? Not just see it, see it on the internet or something like that, because then it's the ties, the stronger connection, I think, to the brain to the memory. And then, you know, if you wanted to draw from it in a for design sensibility, but it's nice, the, there's these really subtle hints at edges, not always drawn, you know, with a hard line, but rendering with, you know, the sort of play of light, yeah. And shadow that then result in an edge formed between, say, the figure and ground or or the area that sketched. And then the area of the page that you leave blank to create the contrast and then even

Jamie: 31:14

foreground to background and leaving, like, you're saying, like, leaving some parts of it blank to kind of let the viewers minds. I fill in the blanks. I think that that's that restraint. That takes time sometimes to develop and develop a way that it's sort of a language of how you sketch. But I think it allows the artwork itself to have a dialogue with the people who are potentially enjoying it. And, and I love the way that you sort of talk about. The suggestion of a form and suggestion of a line, because that's something that doing a sketch like this, especially one from memory is I don't have all the details. Absolutely. Correct. It's my memory of being in this place and a lot of it is texture and light and framed views and knowing what's outside that window. That isn't really a window. And. Knowing that I've sat on that space and leaned up against that wall and trying to to draw it in a way that I can feel it and, and I think that that's, you know, for me, that's the success is that I look at it and go, yep, I know exactly where I am. And if you put a photo up next to it. Would it be close? Probably, you know, would it be a little bit off? I'm absolutely sure. But, but for, for me, it, I can, I can, like you said, as a designer, you know, use that concept of knowing that space to maybe influence something else that I'm working on. And another

Kurt Neiswender: 33:02

aspect of it too is. Is the freedom to use, say, certain patterning or texture, you know, sketch, sketch method, right? So in this case, the hills are in these, you know, light vertical lines and the sky is just blank, right? And then a lot of other sketches you do. A version of a parallel lines for sky and then the ground plane or, you know, the, the earth, the, the terrestrial part of the sketch has, you know, some other you know, rendered technique. And so, you know, I, I hope that the fact that you, you're you know, there's not necessarily a strict rule on, you know, vertical line is. Always sky or something and and I don't know if you even think about this as much but it you know It's me the observer, you know, just comparing sketches over over time and and then just thinking about Process of drawing on my on my own, you know, just not necessarily having a rule set right, I mean some people may find find a Harmony, I guess, in having some constraint or rule sets, but I guess, personally, I, I don't, I don't think that hard about it.

Jamie: 34:32

So, well, we've talked about it before. Is it like a, a. Like I'm not a mantra necessarily for myself, but it's like, you have to kind of know the drawing rules enough of them to then feel comfortable breaking them. Right. And so I think you have to do it. I mean, it's not that anything goes, it's that there, you know, there is some thinking involved in it, even if you are relying on your instincts. You know, I mean, the thing that I would say, even with this, and we haven't necessarily talked this way about a sketch recently is a critique I would have of looking at my own work in this case is I don't set up where the ground plane is, you know, this is all about the window and it's sort of pushing through the page and to, I think to achieve that it was really almost essential for me in my head when I was sort of drawing this, that. I didn't establish the ground plane. I didn't establish where these archways were, you know, is there a roof over this space? You have no, you know, you don't have anything in the foreground that sets up the scale. The only, the only sort of thing that's really giving you a sense of scale to this is that there's this tower and it's in the distance and you can kind of assume. You know, how big that tower is relative to the things that you're seeing in the foreground. So, you know, so there is some, you know, I, I think natural critique to the drawing as well. But you know, I, I think just a different, and that, and I think that that's okay. I think you're, you're allowed to critique, you know, you're going to be your own worst critic and maybe your best

Kurt Neiswender: 36:16

critic. So, right. Well, you know, one of the things too, And, and I'll, I think, you know, I'll be ready after this to say goodbye to the folks, but is, you know, returning back to Christopher Alexander's pattern language book and his concepts of patterns. As far as they are varying in scale from urban to individual element of a building. And so one of them is I think it's called like window bench. I'm not going to remember the number, right? Or window seat or something like that. And, and this sketch, even in its vignette style, right? So like you just said, it's, it's not grounded per se with. You know where the floor line or the ceiling line, you know, it's about this, this window moment, right? And the patterns to me really are individual moments that are tied to memory of spaces that which, you know, if you can cobble together 2, 3 or 4 moments as elements of a design of a building, you know, I think. Without overanalyzing Alexander's book, the idea, I think, is in rendering or creating spaces, buildings that have these moments coming up or tied together, which, which then connect to memories of other spaces and things like that, that become comfort, comfortable and familiar. And and so then you associate sort of a positive feeling of of the space reacting to a newly designed space that is drawn from these these various moments. So I think I think I did over complicated, even though I was saying it was good. Did you get you understand?

Jamie: 38:32

No, I I didn't expect you to talk. I'm glad you did. I didn't expect you to tie it to that. But I think when you said sort of the window seat. You know, and, and, and, and not in the drawing, not over complicating the concept of the window seat, right? And, and that, that memory and the way it's rendered allows for that genuineness that you're sort of describing that you can hold on to, you know, as a designer and, you know, to a place and to a memory, but also be able to utilize the, the feelings or thoughts that that evokes. In future works you know, tying you to those other, you know, moments that Alexander sort of, you know, or as a designer, it's like the, you know, simply put, you only have 3 moves you can make in a design, right? Right. You know everything else is going to be just sort of background, you know, and if window and vantage point. And this sort of vignette moment is super critical like you realize in as a designer that this, this is a moment that's critical and you're like, well, what, what inspiration can I draw upon, you know, to, to, to achieve that a sketch like this, it's not that you're going to create a loja with a window in the back, but, but you, but you, you've been in that space before and, and then, and known what, you know, You know where your imagination can go. And so I think that's a great I mean, you know, window seat. You know, Christopher Alexander, you know, sitting there with a bunch of pretzels writing a postcard. It was just, there's beauty in that, man. That's poetry.

Kurt Neiswender: 40:29

Poetry. Well, on that note, I think we, we've captured the essence of, of the poem. And no, it's really, really, I think some of the best sketches are seemingly or, you know, simple, but not, it's, there's a lot in that sketch. But at first glance, it looks like a, you know, a vignette in the sense that it's a small space, you know, sort of a singular focus. But anyway, there's, there's always, there's always some depth in, in, in the sketches. So anyway, that's a

Jamie: 41:17

great sketch. Thank you.