Coffee Sketch Podcast

089 - Talking Preservation Techniques and Montreal's Notre Dame

November 27, 2021 Kurt Neiswender/Jamie Crawley Season 3 Episode 89
Coffee Sketch Podcast
089 - Talking Preservation Techniques and Montreal's Notre Dame
Show Notes Transcript

Thank you for listening. We both hope that you enjoyed this episode of Coffee Sketch Podcast. Our Theme music is provided by my brother who goes by @c_0ldfashioned on Instagram and Twitter. Our podcast is hosted at coffeesketchpodcast.com find more show notes and information from this episode. And finally, if you liked this episode please rate us on iTunes and share us with your friends! Thank you!


Music on the Show


CNEIS - https://cneis.bandcamp.com/

c_0ldfashioned - https://www.instagram.com/c_0ldfashioned/ 

Compilation - https://triplicaterecords.bandcamp.com/track/cneis-more-or-less 


Our Links


Follow Jamie on Instagram  - https://www.instagram.com/falloutstudio/ 

Follow Kurt on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kurtneiswender/ 

Kurt’s Practice - https://www.instagram.com/urbancolabarchitecture/ 


Coffee Sketch on Twitter - https://twitter.com/coffeesketch 

Jamie on Twitter - https://twitter.com/falloutstudio 

Kurt on Twitter - https://twitter.com/kurtneiswender 


On the Web


Website - www.coffeesketchpodcast.com

Kurt’s Practice - www.urbancolab.design 

Contact Us - info@urbancolab.design 


Coffee Sketch Podcast is on YouTube for extended cuts and more visual content of Jamie’s beautiful sketches. Please consider subscribing!


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_lQkY3-OqmHaTl_jdOgtvw 


Kurt’s Practice Urban Colab Architecture, shares about the practice of architecture and is also on YouTube. Please Subscribe to: 


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuMXvvQXgrQIVE1uJ8QHxsw 


Tags


In situ, art, architecture, sketching, coffee, coffee sketch, podcast, coffee sketch podcast, what an architect does, design, design thinking, drawing, buildings, building sketches, sketches, pen, paper, sketchbook, coffee stains, watercolor, pencil sketches, markers, black and white, architects, architecting, ink sketch, ink drawing, cafe sketch, cafe sketching

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/coffeesketch)
Kurt Neiswender:

Hi, Jamie, how are you?

Jamie Crawley:

I'm doing good. Kurt, how are you doing?

Kurt Neiswender:

I'm doing, I'm doing really well. I I'm wearing my hat or as my Montreal based coat or, well, not base, but, yeah. I don't even know how to spell Tuk, but yeah, there you go. You got your, you got your hockey gear. I got my hockey gear. I've got my layers on because today we're talking about Montreal. We are. It's known for many things, hockey being one of them, maple syrup, another and a. Being cold at times maybe. Yeah.

Jamie Crawley:

Yeah. Which apparently Kurt Kurt's called enough days wearing a Tuk in the house, and drinking some coffee. So that's good. So what, so what are you drinking? What what's, what's the coffee of the day?

Kurt Neiswender:

actually, so one of my new favorites with, again, my local local friends at rootless coffee here in Flint, the Flint roasters, they have one, they call. Barry kiss like a, you know, a fruit strawberry or something like that. And it is, it's a lighter roast, but it has a little, a little hint of a Berry scent, like a Roma when you're take your first sip. And it's nice. I mean, it doesn't taste like, you know, a fruit coffee or anything, but it has a little bit of a sweet, sweet smell.

Jamie Crawley:

And a fruit coffee sounds sort of disgusting.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. It's not that, but they call it a Berry Berry kiss and, I got a greeter Roma. Yeah. And so I'm using a Biltmore mug from Asheville, Asheville, Tennessee.

Jamie Crawley:

It's your geography

Kurt Neiswender:

right? North Carolina. So anyway. So what about you what's in that clear glass, non Asheville mug?

Jamie Crawley:

I am indulging in the Starbucks maple pecan seasonal blend. it's, it's pretty great.

Kurt Neiswender:

sounds good. I might have to venture out of this, this house to go find some

Jamie Crawley:

highly, highly recommend, you know, there. And yes, local roasters and all that. but in this particular case, this is one that's, you know, a nice indulgent moment. the, it just, it has a really great. it's, a nice medium roast, but, the sort of sweetness of the maple is, is kind of present, but at the same time, the aroma of the pecan is pretty great. So I have a question for you though. and I've, I've sort of given it away at the tip, tip my hand. you are in a very, very Northern state. So how, how would you. what would you call the nut that I'm referring to the state nut of Texas, the state tree of Texas and the state PI of Texas? Well, my

Kurt Neiswender:

dad, I would, I mean, you know me, I mean, we go back, we go back a ways now, but other people in my vicinity would say, P can.

Jamie Crawley:

And do you promptly correct them or do you just kind of like, just take note mental note?

Kurt Neiswender:

We, I, yes, I try and repeat. Right? You take, what do you call a teachable moment? Oh

Jamie Crawley:

yes.

Kurt Neiswender:

I prefer pecans in my PI.

Jamie Crawley:

Very nice. Yeah. Cheers.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. Good one. You tried to catch me, try and get, cause I'm wearing this to exactly endorse, but I'm going to give you why. Right? So, because this is a very present and current events podcast. I got my booster shot yesterday. It's tweet. And so. actually the, the side effects are waning now that we talk, right. I had a little chill, so I might, you know, I might take off the hat and it's not to be too funny, but I was, I got my layers on and I was feeling a little, well, well, Chile also got. Flu shot. I, I got upsold by the pharmacist, which I've never had.

Jamie Crawley:

You definitely should do both. and to be upsold by the pharmacist in this particular case, this instance in this time that we live in, probably not a bad

Kurt Neiswender:

thing. Yeah. Two for the price of one, which is free,

Jamie Crawley:

but you just didn't do it in a sink. Don't do it in the same arm due

Kurt Neiswender:

to late. I get, I get the,

Jamie Crawley:

I see. That's why, that's why, that's why you get the

Kurt Neiswender:

chills. What do you call it?

Jamie Crawley:

and now you're full operational Deathstar

Kurt Neiswender:

that's all right. So yeah, I'm starting to, and the, and for those who are concerned, the, so now this is the third shot round. And so the side-effects did not take me out like the, first ground. It's pretty mild, you know, I can, I can live with. You know, a little, a little bit of a little achy, you know, in the joints, but that's kind of faded already. And then now just, you know, leftover chills. And it's only been, it's been less than 24 hours since. So, you know, there's the full science breakdown for the, you know, it's, I think people can, I think a lot of people are concerned about side effects. You know, Danielle is.

Jamie Crawley:

I, I, I am fully operational as well. Cool.

Kurt Neiswender:

Well, anyhow, so thanks for obliging, my end caffeinated.

Jamie Crawley:

So we're, we're all

Kurt Neiswender:

set. Well, I've been taking the opportunity to, indulge on hot beverages. To smart, then we got to chill. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Yeah. We're a

Jamie Crawley:

pot of coffee. Yep. Sounds good. Let's do it.

Kurt Neiswender:

So, anyway, so what we decided to talk about today was a little throwback to some Montreal sketches. Well, one sketch Montreal, another sketch. New York, I believe with a little bit of correct. Yup. A little bit of a historical significant tie in that Jamie will make the connection, but my only claim to fame for Montreal at the moment aside from knowing Jamie is I'm wearing my, give a shout out to our friends at Schluter systems. Let's see if I can get their logo on. And they were gracious enough to, inviting. We talked about this maybe once before they invited me out with a bunch of other architects to, and, and, Danielle came with me, and we got a tour of their factory operations, which is based in Montreal or their, I should say their north American. Headquarters in Montreal. And then we got to eat a lot of nice food as Jamie is well aware. Montreal people know how to make good food. Absolutely. And not just for dinner, no

Jamie Crawley:

breakfast, lunch, dinner, dessert. Second, second lunch. Yeah. Good stuff

Kurt Neiswender:

for the hobbits

Jamie Crawley:

on the box, the podcast.

Kurt Neiswender:

Second breakfast. Well, when man, the one, the hotel we stayed at, which was the Intercontinental right there, which is a Stone's throw from where our sketches today, had these maple crib. In the, in the buffet breakfast, which constituted a second breakfast. Yeah. Anyway. All right. So one more thing before we dive right in. And as I wanted to, share some good news, Charlie or my brother who. Written and recorded the music that we use for our intro and outro and segues from time to time, he, he got a couple of songs put on an EAP. If I'm using the terms correctly of digital music, that he was invited to be a participant on an EAP. So. So, you know, it's pretty cool. Actually, I have, I will have my hands on a copy shortly. Excellent.

Jamie Crawley:

Well, I mean, in that, that probably since he was our, absolutely our first guest, back in the day, it was like looking in like the strange, you know, matrix mirror, you know, it's like, which 1:00 AM I seeing? The red pill or the blue pill they're in like physical form. Yeah, let's, let's, let's have him on again. We can talk about, you know, kind of where he is. and that would be fantastic.

Kurt Neiswender:

I think there's a, yeah, I think there's actually some more stuff that he's working on too, that, we'll have to get the school. So anyway, yeah, it's, it's been fun. So anyway, w should I, should I flash our flash, our

Jamie Crawley:

imagery now let's go to the sketch kit,

Kurt Neiswender:

get into this. And actually, if we, if, if I start getting real techie, I might even flip my camera around.

Jamie Crawley:

Oh my goodness. And,

Kurt Neiswender:

you know, Draw something draw, draw, or we're talking, it might need to be, you know, it's a form of communication. So can we

Jamie Crawley:

do that? Yeah. Well I can,

Kurt Neiswender:

so I have the equipment now, so

Jamie Crawley:

yeah, I know, I know. I know. So, so this is, attended a virtual conference and I was telling you a little bit about it, but, You know, one of the sessions that I was, I had marked, when I was looking through the agenda, you know, this was a particular interest of course, because, you know, when you, I think as you, as you would probably attest to as well as hearing somebody talk about a building that you have been in and learning a lot more from. And sort of their own research and, and perspectives about it, especially in this virtual world that we are in. you know, th this is a building I'm very familiar with, obviously. and, you know, from being a little kid, but also going back as an adult. and so this is a, the Basilica and in Montreal, in old Montreal, Notredame and, so the speaker was, an architect in Quebec, Daniel. and he had been recently hired to, to, Help with some restoration efforts on the, on the church. And what was interesting was he had to do, of course, you know, as a restoration architect, you know, you know, inspect kind of what's there and see it physically, which you see some of those photos, had the upper upper part of the image, as he was talking. But at the same time, it was because this building was built in 1824. it's a. It has its own history and has, has seen multiple iterations of work being done to it. And so some of his work as an architect today is trying to figure out what others had done in the past. So kind of forensic in nature. That's exactly. I think that's the best way to describe it. And so he was, I really particularly enjoyed the way his delivery was on this because he sort of described. The, the interest he had Odyssey and the history, but I'm trying to really kind of understand, you know, both what was going on. I'm just talking about newspaper clippings and sort of, you know, things historically that were going on in the city at the time, and of these different moments that he could physically see in the building. And, and then what they have to do. you know, what the, what the archdiocese had sort of enlisted them to do. And, in terms of taking care and being a good steward of the building. so it was just, it was, you know, it's, it's pretty fascinating. I mean, this is. You know, th this particular site is, the side of the, the oldest, parish on the island. so Montreal is an island for those who have not heard us talk about my, my hometown, in the past. But, you know, they, there's just like in a lot of historical sites. You know, buildings that have been there before that aren't there anymore. but you know, this, this site in particular, is, you know, sacred in a sense, but at the same time has you know, how to build history. And then, in this particular case, this building is, you know, dates back to 1824 and then has seen multiple iterations of work being done on it. Since then. in a previous episode we talked about. chapel in the back. So there's the, the, the main, nave and, and alter and image. A lot of wood intricate work, a lot of stained glass on the inside when people kind of recognize that image of Notredam. and then, but then there's, a more modern chapel right before. and that was there had been a fire. And so part of the building had burned in the back and that got reconstructed, in, I believe in the late sixties, early seventies. And so that was, You know, it has a very, very different, treatment to it, architecturally, which is it's really quite, you know, quite stunning, you know, how different it can be. And it has, it also is in wood, but has it as a different warmth, about it and, you know, clearly have a different age. and it's kind of not kind of nice to see.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. You know, and, and we talked about a couple of times, well, often we're talking about preservation. lately, you know, with some of my work projects that I've got and then some of the work that you're doing at the, at the state office and, you know, some of those, especially with a building like this, that has that he uncovered these. various time periods of renovation and, and one would hope, right. That whoever was designing and building those modifications over those various time periods was doing the best they could to, merge or meld the new and the old. And create these, sort of, I don't know how to put it, like, you know, the significance between what was there and what is now there. And then again, you know, so we talk about this sort of inherited historicism or inherited character when you have a multiple, renovations. Historic structure

Jamie Crawley:

over time. Well, and, and to your point before about the forensic aspect of it is, is sometimes trying to understand kind of what you're seeing. and you know, in some documentation and, and he, he, it was, I think that was, that's always sort of a fascinating part, I think, really for anybody, especially in our discipline, when you get to sort of see old, other people's drawings, I mean, work, we talk about, you know, my sketches and things, you know, in, in this kind of context, but you know, you and I both, you know, talk about our love of, of looking at other architects. and try to study it and understand it. And so in this particular case, you know, he's looking at, and his firm is looking at, you know, the, the work that, you know, documents, you know, previous iterations of this particular building. and, it's, And then seeing it in a physical form and trying to understand, is it, is it accurate, you know, did, did, did they, did they build it exactly the way that they drew it? and then, you know, and then at the same time kind of what, what has changed since then? And what did they have to do in terms of repairs? Were all the repairs captured in a drawing? Is there documentation of that? you know, he alluded to and you know, haven't been, you know, next time I'm in Montreal. I think there'll be something that I'll, I'll definitely pay a little bit closer attention to, but in the mainstream. He was referring to some of the structural columns that they had discovered in some of their work, that from the exterior parents of them, they appear to be, original, and have this sort of intricate wood appearance to them. and in that sort of interior space has that. But what. alluding to, was that some of those structural members, maybe even, maybe even a lot of them had been reconstructed over time, our a in a particular time, with concrete. And so it was this sort of soup and a, he didn't go into it because it was, it was a relatively short presentation, but it's something I'm, I'm interested to kind of go circle back to is he was like, I'm not even sure how. How they executed this. and I think that that's something that, you know, that for us as practicing architects today is, you know, sometimes it's, it's not always readily apparent when you're looking at something and in, you know, it's built, you know, it's been done, you can look at the material, but, and you, and you know, what was done before, cause you maybe even have documentation of what was there before. And you're trying to figure out how did this happen? you know, how, how, how was it done and, and was it done well enough that it hasn't gotten. Irreparable damage to something else. And that was something that he was also talking about is that there's some areas, especially on the roof, that there, there was some material choices, that, that weren't good. And, over time they've really degraded. And so now they're having to go back in and fix them and that's pretty. so

Kurt Neiswender:

yeah, I mean, that's interesting to even any non historic building now, right. Is the conflict of what we call dissimilar material. And you have junctions between, you know, a stone in a wood or stone metal.

Jamie Crawley:

Oops, sorry. Cock is not going to solve it all.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yes. Yeah. You can just, yeah. You know,

Jamie Crawley:

cookies, cookies, not going to be the solution to like everything.

Kurt Neiswender:

At another Canadian term

Jamie Crawley:

for no, no, that was that's. That's like a contractor, Texas contractor term, poopy poopy. Like I had, I had a materials and methods professor who, you know, introduce us to the term. Yeah, that's not in a, I think Garfield's Teddy bear was named cookie, but not, not

Kurt Neiswender:

like, not in that context has nothing to do with Garfield though.

Jamie Crawley:

Now we're talking about an industrial Cox, yeah. Pooky. There's what they call sealants sealants sealants in the specifications.

Kurt Neiswender:

yeah, but yeah, you're right. I mean, It's interesting. And then also to like, as, especially with old built older, in this building is, is, is very old. And in its origination know 18 hundreds, but

Jamie Crawley:

200 years old,

Kurt Neiswender:

you know? So over the 200 years, you know, what kinds of alternate. Materials have come out that you know, are trying, you know, so in certain cases, I'm sure they couldn't, you can't find some of the materials that, or the assembly of materials that was done 200

Jamie Crawley:

years ago. And I can actually see, like in the photo, in the upper, right, you can see where some of the two, two stone pieces have been, have been cobbled back together with a metal. And the mail strap is completely exposed to the elements, right? In a draining, in a drainage plane, not enough, not enough Pooky, so not protected. that's not going to last, you know, that's going to corrode over to. so there's, you know, things that people are maybe doing that are okay for 10 years, but when you got a 200 year old building, yeah. He definitely have to make some different kind of choices.

Kurt Neiswender:

It's tough though. I mean like what we do, we try and do our best as the designers, the architects trying to specify and, sort of make the right decisions, working with clients and contractors, but. not that this, I didn't imagine us going down this sort of tangent of a conversation, but it's really interesting because your client will, well, many times I'll say in general terms, our client expects you to be the end, all be all the know, all of, you know, You know, let's, you know, like the decision to use that metal strap is the right decision. Well, we're all trying to make our best educated guesses as to what is getting, you know, I mean, I, at least looking at this picture kind of thinking, hoping that the team that made that decision was trying to do their best versus. Slapping a bunch of Pooky on there.

Jamie Crawley:

Right. Right. Well, and I know you've got a, I know you've got another sketch and I think it's, he said this conference is one where, you know, for the architects in the audience, Yeah, because as I'm dealing a lot more in preservation of late, you know, there's some other conferences that deal with preservation technology and which is great. And a lot of architects, historians and, manufacturer's product specifiers and all that will kind of, you know, lend some insight into some seminar sessions. but, but what's, I think for me, as an architect who practices. And loves to travel and loves to learn about different places. this particular conference this year was great. sort of the pairing of different things. So one minute I'm in Montreal and the next minute I'm in Harlem, you know, And really looking at buildings that are about the same age. This is 18 50, 18 56. Oh, wow. and it's, it's considered this particular sketch. It looks like a little kind of Watchtower. I'm kind of curious what you, what you think of it as

Kurt Neiswender:

like a mini lighthouse? I don't know. It's very much

Jamie Crawley:

something. Hey, there you go. Perfect. Did me? I didn't, you know, I didn't even prompt you. I mean, that's, that's great. so yeah, this was, the Harlem fire watch. Ah, ah,

Kurt Neiswender:

yes. See, that's something that old cities had had to have before the internet.

Jamie Crawley:

Yeah. And you can, and you can see it there. It says 1856 and the sketch. but it's it's the oldest cast iron, or surviving cast iron structure, you know, in the U S

Kurt Neiswender:

do you remember, do you remember where whereabouts in heart? Like what streets may be near? Cause I, I used to take the train in the new. And on my way to Columbia and then take the bus across town and, you know, sort of pass right through Harlem. And you could see, so I'm trying to visualize if I've seen this thing, but I don't

Jamie Crawley:

know it's in a. it's, it's in, it's in a park. And so I, I don't know that, that area, I mean, I've only been to, Manhattan twice in my life. and so, haven't spent a whole lot of time in New York, and, and in the boroughs or anything like that. So. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So, I mean, it's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know, I don't know all the, you know, the different areas of town very, very well. and definitely have not been here, but it's, it's in a park. and apparently was, was there and really falling into bad, bad disrepair. but it had been listed as New York city landmark, you know, national register of historic places, and has gone through a significant, restoration. And is it looks like this is going to be on my list to go see next time I'm there. Cause it's, it's pretty fabulous.

Kurt Neiswender:

Is that what that is in the middle? No.

Jamie Crawley:

Yeah. There's a big bell in the middle. Yeah. And there was an observation deck at the top and I see that and sort of a circular stair that kind of whines through it. but the, but the detailing on it was, was pretty amazing. And then, but what they, what was interesting as well, and you can probably appreciate this from our discussions about structure and systems. Is, they were recognizing that the tower itself wanted to torque because of the materials that it was created with and really over time was going to be grade. and so they had to reinforce it yet at the same time. Hold on to the, the historic form and shape. And how, how do you introduce other materials into it in a way that, allows for the form and shape to be recognizable as sort of a historic artifact, that's restored and then safe and, and structurally sound. And so. Elaborate 3d modeling of this, structural modeling of it and figure it out how to create some other sort of 10 Sal members, on, within the fabric of it so that you still get this transparent, you know, Watchtower, but have these kind of clear elements that you can see or. So it's not, you know, there's still that differentiation between old and new, but that it doesn't overtake the building, in scale or, or anything like that. And it, it was really, it was really a nicely sensitively detailed and, great discussion.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. And so this thing is actually, it's not a solid, it's like a,

Jamie Crawley:

open air it's open air. Yeah. Had

Kurt Neiswender:

even at the bottom. Yeah. So they have. They couldn't just build a, a cage inside of the skin, so to speak

Jamie Crawley:

and there's nowhere to hide.

Kurt Neiswender:

So they had to kind of, yeah, that would be interesting. Did they show any images of their analysis model? Oh yeah.

Jamie Crawley:

Yeah. They showed it at Nellis, the smiles they showed, how, you know, how the interventions were going to be done, how they have. Disassemble aspects of it and then rebuild them offsite and bring them in, fully assembled, and then create some, you know, integral bracing, that worked in conjunction with the cast iron elements. it was, it was a really, really thoughtful design solution that. You know, sorta celebrates it, but at the same time, you know, it brings it into a whole new life. And, I think that's, that's sort of the, the neat thing about these historically, accurate project.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. That's, let's see. 1856. So that's two or 19. So it's under 200 under 200. I'm doing my, my Michigan. It's less than 200 years

Jamie Crawley:

old. Oh, you're doing math. That's scary. We've always, we've determined that in, in past conversations, you know, but it's, you know, the thing too is that it's, you know, a project like this, just like, you know, when people think about buildings or, or places that people want to save, this was one that was sort of the same thing. It was sort of community. where were folks in the, in the community recognized its importance. and, and so there was some discussion of that and then a nice celebration, of it's, you know, reopening.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. I mean, we can go on and on about like all kinds of assets or facets of it, like the, the technology. Connecting back to the Notre, Dom and Montreal, as far as like over the years, right. The technology at the time to help like restore and there's so many angles. but one thing I guess I'd like to, to, to end on, or is, is. It's actually about the sketches in both cases. So, so how long, how long did this one take and I, and then the second or each one take, and then the second, the followup is how, did you use the slides that you were being shown as the, the backdrop or the prompt to sketch in both cases?

Jamie Crawley:

Yes. In both cases actually, in this particular case with the Watchtower, they had a really great image. That held on, unfortunately held on the screen long enough for me to kind of, you know, get the bare bones of it. and you know, it's, it's a very loose sketch, to kind of create that geometry and the scale of it. and then as, as they advanced and talked, you know, I, I kind of fleshed it out a little bit, but then, there was a moment where they started to talk about some of the connections. And sort of zeroed in on where their interventions were. Wasn't able to really kind of draw their interventions. Cause at that point there were sort of skipping between sort of digital models and physical models and then in real life. But it, it, it dawned on me that some of the details were, columns elements that I could. Kind of see, remember and sketch. And so that the blowup detail here is sort of that see, you know, and then regurgitate, you know, on the page without having to have it hold on the

Kurt Neiswender:

screen. How long, so how long did it take? Oh,

Jamie Crawley:

this sketch is probably, 10 minutes total.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. Cause I, I, I ask, cause I want to tell my students. Encourage them to sketch more.

Jamie Crawley:

And I mean, I mean, yeah, the first, yeah, the first, yeah, the first sketches only, that the loose one, you know, is, is only on a screen for, you know, a little. And so it's maybe a two, three minute kind of blocking it in. And then as they talked, I kind of fleshed it out a little bit more, but then when they started to get into the details and the analysis, I thought that was really fascinating. And at one point they had an image where they blew up a corner detail of sort of two columns kind of coming together. And these sort of wrapped rings. that you sort of see in the, in the main sketch. And I was like, oh, that's, that's really interesting how the, you know, one column sits on top of the other part of the ring. and so I, so I, I D it just, it, it made sort of an indelible impression, I guess, on me. And so it was enough that I could sketch it without it being on the screen. So finish that one in about 10 minutes, the note, your Dom, when, the, as they were giving. The lecture and sort of the introduction of things. it was one where there was enough of, a historical framework that there was a, the image was on the screen for a good five minutes. And so it was able to block it in. And then, the rest of it was sort of fleshing it out for another five minutes or so. as they continue to talk and sort of other images were on the screen.

Kurt Neiswender:

Yeah. I mean, thanks. I think I'm going to try and point my, some of my students to listen to this, we were talking about. Offer off the script about how to introduce the podcast to my students.

Jamie Crawley:

Well, a lot of it is it's, you know, it's about what you're seeing and sort of like we've talked about before sort of blocking in, you can sort of see what this one is, is guiding yourself on the page. So the composition is there enough and then. If you're really engrossed in it. And then in this particular case, it's, it's one where I'm engrossed in somebody else speaking and sir, and the subject matter. And so I'm able to sort of fill in a lot of that information, you know, and sort of force myself to remember what I'm seeing. You know, even if it's moved off the page or as they've kind of scrolling through other images, I'm still seeing some of those details and I'm able to place them into my own. you know, to kind of help me kind of finalize it. but it's, it's still a quick sketch it's, it's done very quickly, very loosely. there's not a lot of wine way to it. it's, it's, it's more about the form and shape and, and shadow, you know, trying to capture the volume of it as opposed to, a very precise. Line weight type drawing. and at the same time, I think it does really kind of capture the essence of that space and that's, that was, you know,

Kurt Neiswender:

I wanted to, you know, make sure that I mentioned how, you know, seeing this reminds me of standing like right there in front of it and, you know, cause there's this really nice. civic Plaza right across the front, you know, the, the tripartite entry space there and, you know, the, the three arches, let's just, it's nice Plaza building surrounding Plaza on all four sides, you know, with sort of Notredame being like the main, community function and then there's other offices and so on. And so I re I remember being right there and then, you know, down in the distance, like in the corner or. The left. There's a little cafe down in the bottom of that building over there. And then off to the right is the kind of, part of the, the, I don't know my Catholic spaces, but like the cloister. Right, right. Exactly. The other function spaces of the overall church complex compound. kind of wrapping around and, and then going down the street a little bit and it's all sloping, it's not totally flat flat. So it's a really neat sort of a little bit of a plinth, you know, and, and low, a little, little topography to deal with, but yeah, it's yeah, it's nice. It's a nice space. And I, I think we mentioned. Wrap this up, but the, the time when we were there, they had a really cool light show inside. I think we talked about it the last time, but just to bring it back, you know, with, with some of the stained glass spaces, they had like a laser show. Like it was, you know, some lasers that are shooting across a space, but then backlighting some of the other glass and so on and creating those really atmospheric. Thing there's none sort of a secular event, not a non-religious thing. Just being able to utilize, the, the, Basilica as like a, architectural backdrop or a, a stage,

Jamie Crawley:

I suppose. Oh, that's fantastic. I, I remember you telling me about it and I, I had hadn't thought about it. It's but I can imagine, I mean, it, it is that the space has so. Has such a presence. and to activate it that way just sounds pretty fascinating. I'd love to kind of see it.

Kurt Neiswender:

yeah, I wonder when you get back there, sorry, you know, maybe they'll, that would be something they do, like on a,

Jamie Crawley:

that's a new thing. there's a cathedral in San Antonio that they've, they've done, a similar thing where they. you're talking about interior. This was on the exterior where they've done a, a light presentation on the facade of the cathedral, where it's the history of San Antonio, sort of embedded in, in, in this sort of story. And it's, again, architecture is backdrop and sort of activating that space and with using technology. it's, it's pretty great stuff.

Kurt Neiswender:

So anyway, we might pick up on that in a future future conversation, but I will, think we'll call it a day and we'll keep my to con and say thanks to Jamie.