088 - Let's Coffee Sketch in San Antonio

Kurt Neiswender: 0:32

Hey, Jamie. How are you doing

Jamie Crawley: 0:35

good? How are you?

Kurt Neiswender: 0:36

I don't know. Pretty good. I think I actually am. I'm doing well. I think I'm, you got the giggles. Yeah, I've got the, time constraint giggles, but I don't know what to do with myself since we don't have enough.

Jamie Crawley: 0:49

Yeah. Yeah. I can't can't do all that wasting time ahead of time. So yes. So, but we do have,

Kurt Neiswender: 0:56

we've got like the same, almost the same mug.

Jamie Crawley: 0:59

That's like

Kurt Neiswender: 1:00

handles a little too slow. We need some coffee sketchbooks.

Jamie Crawley: 1:05

Yeah, I think so. It's like swag. we've got those pins, which are we're. We're good.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:10

yeah, so I've got

Jamie Crawley: 1:12

one. Did I did see somebody like trying to, you know, hustle the idea of, Architects branded coffee. So really tried, tried to get in the pocket that the podcast sort of surreptitiously into that, not surreptitiously. It was very direct, into that conversation and not very many people got it, but you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 1:33

that's okay. Well, there's still a chance with our local.

Jamie Crawley: 1:37

I think, I think they would be fantastic cause they, they, they appreciate the good graphics on their bags. they seem to work with some good artists, and, and the coffee's pretty great. So, I like, well, I liked that

Kurt Neiswender: 1:50

idea. I will, I will reach back out. I, I owe a return to that as a, put it in my, to do list. So before we dive into the quick sketch of the day, I did want to point out for any of the listeners out there that we have started to up. The this podcast on YouTube to further gift the gift of Jamie's sketches. And so that you can watch this conversation and our dialogue and the dialogue. Yes. Taking advantage, full advantage of, of technology. And so that you can watch the sketch or watch us talk about this. And not just hear us talk about the sketch. Right. That makes sense.

Jamie Crawley: 2:40

Well, and, and it's, and it does, it's sort of a, you know, for those, you know, early listeners, or who maybe, you know, inadvertently listened to the first episode, you know, by clicking around, they might've heard. A lot of the origin, you and I playing with this technology. and, and the, the sort of the impetus for, for us having these kinds of conversations started out with, with your dabbling in sort of, a video blog, you know, back in the day, and sort of doing kind of a walking tour, which I think we're going to talk about a little bit here today, ironically enough. But, but first things first. so what, what's the coffee of the day in, in Flint? Well, so

Kurt Neiswender: 3:18

earlier I had, cause you're going to hate me cause I'm going to be honest of what I'm drinking at the moment. But, earlier I had some of our local rootless coffee makers, it's called Berry kiss. I don't know if I sent that to you or not. it's their light roast. I think it's their lightest roast, which I didn't really know this, or they probably should have known this, but I guess lighter roasts of coffee have higher caffeine content. Some, because I guess the roasting actually pulls the caffeine out of it.

Jamie Crawley: 3:52

Does it really have sort of a Berry flavor?

Kurt Neiswender: 3:55

you know, what I, I pick up mostly is,

Jamie Crawley: 3:57

do you smell it more than you taste it?

Kurt Neiswender: 4:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a little bit of an aroma, I guess it is kind of a Swedish sweet ish, not Swedish, but a sweet or.

Jamie Crawley: 4:12

That would be like if like Ikea had their own coffee brand,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:15

it, it smell like meatballs,

Jamie Crawley: 4:18

meatballs, and like those little gummies, those little gummy fish things, and you'd have to put it all together. Like there would be instructions, with no words. They might like the podcast cause it's our drawing. So

Kurt Neiswender: 4:30

that's a fantastic idea. I mean, there are drawing, I think you should make a drawing of what that would look

Jamie Crawley: 4:35

like. I could do

Kurt Neiswender: 4:36

that. Could maybe I could do one to see what.

Jamie Crawley: 4:41

That would be, that might be the impetus for us getting a, you know, someone to roast some coffee

Kurt Neiswender: 4:46

for us in Sweden, Sweden, not Switzerland, Sweden.

Jamie Crawley: 4:50

Okay. We're going to work on geography. We've already discussed your math skills before. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:56

the math let's go back to gr geographically. Let's go back to Austin. Yeah. Jamie what he's up to drinking? No. Yeah.

Jamie Crawley: 5:04

So, it, it is fall. It is officially fall, I think, feeling like up here, it might have like, started to feel like fall today. like I actually almost considered like, do I want a long sleeve shirt? so, yeah. I think as I'm wearing my Jersey, but, No. So I, so I did, you know, it's, it is that time of year where I will indulge myself in the limited edition Starbucks, maple pecan. Coffee. cause it feels a little bit like fall. and, and I do like the pecan, kind of flavor, but then, you know, maple and maple syrup, I mean, Canadian. So, you know, it's, it it's, it I'm drawn to it, you know, there's something in the DNA. but, yeah, no, I, I like it. It's sort of, it's got, it's what I, I was trying to figure out. I knew that we were going to talk about it a little bit. Yeah. What I'm surprised at is, cause I'm not really into the sort of sweet coffees or like, you know, darker roasts and sort of richer. this is one that sort of is on the, a little bit on the sweeter side, but it does have that sort of savory because of the pecan and the toastiness of it. so I think that sort of savory. and it's, it's, it's a nice medium blend. I mean, it's, it's, it's a little bit, you know, it's not on the left side, like I guess yours is, but, but I'm, I, you know, this is the only time of year I get it. So is it as good?

Kurt Neiswender: 6:23

Do you think, is it regional, like the Starbucks do regional stuff or is that something I could find up here?

Jamie Crawley: 6:30

I think you probably could buy it. Yeah, no, I think, I think he could probably get it. I mean, I think it's more of a. Like seasonal, more seasonal than

Kurt Neiswender: 6:38

regional. Yeah. I'll have to, I'll have to keep an eye on. I've been, trying to support my, my local brewers,

Jamie Crawley: 6:45

brewers, roasters support

Kurt Neiswender: 6:48

your local brewers as well. So, you know yeah. In the evenings. All right. So, I know Jamie's got a he's he's all geared up for. Is that the way you say kill it out and the FC cause so he's, so we're going to try and squeeze in a quick podcast while whilst, Jimmy gets ready for the soccer game. So, so what we thought we would do, let me, I'm going to share my screen for everyone and, jump right into it. So, what, what I'd love to hear about since we haven't caught up yet, and you've had a busy couple of weeks and I had a busy week with, my own AI regional event. So tell me about the, the AI, Texas, or Texas society of architects. This is their annual. Meeting, right. The, the big,

Jamie Crawley: 7:39

yeah. Yeah. So this is the, this is the big conference, so that, you know, you get the VM, the. traditional, you know, lanyard with your name and all that business. And so, yeah, I was actually a speaker this year, like an official one. So I got the speaker badge. this is the 82nd annual, conference. it is, it is it's statewide seat. There's curd with his bed. he's got fancy titles and stuff on his,

Kurt Neiswender: 8:02

yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about that later.

Jamie Crawley: 8:04

all kidding aside. so part of our, you know, profession of course is, you know, continuing education. So that's, you know, that's what all of these conferences are, but I think it was sort of, you know, for me, I don't know how it was for you, but, it was a pretty big deal, you know, having a, an in-person. Conference like this. I mean, after having so many virtual ones, this one didn't have a virtual component. you and I had talked about the national conference, how we, we kind of enjoyed some of the virtual aspects of things. and knowing that, you know, national is going to go back to their, in person, but we were kind of lamenting, you know, that there's some aspects of that virtual piece that's sort of fun and, That we wouldn't want them to necessarily, you know, lose. I think, you know, this, this was different. you know, certainly attendance was down. you know, we were just completely understandable. but the conference was in San Antonio. and, I was able to do a pre-con pre-conference workshop. And, and it was let's coffee sketch in San Antonio. So, was very, very excited. and I think that was probably maybe what drew me to, no pun intended, maybe a pun intended. to actually go into the conference, was, was sort of the opportunity to kind of explore the, kind of the workshop format, get out, walk around in San Antonio, with a bunch of other architects who enjoy sketching, and. I, I, you know, we've talked a lot about kind of urban exploring and things like that. And so this was, whether it was fantastic, and it was a good opportunity to get out. And so the image on the screen was, they did give us one of those, small seminar rooms in the conference center, sort of as our initial rally point. and what I wanted to do was. for those who didn't necessarily know who I was, or kind of what my background was, kind of explain that a little bit, stylistically and, kind of explain kind of the, the breadth of different sketches. So I brought, basically my five most recent sketchbooks, and, you know, plus the one that I had just started, or just been working on here recently and, and then showed them a bunch of different media as well. that. Really kind of the idea that we've talked about a lot is, is being nimble. just trying to, just trying to, and you can you see the coffee in there too? but, yeah, so it was, it was sort of trying to encourage that. and discourage the idea of, being too self-critical, especially for those who were, you know, recognizing that they, they signed up for this, we're excited about it. but then at the same time, a little bit nervous cause they hadn't sketched in a long time and certainly not. And certainly not like in this, in this sort of way. so tried a couple of different things to come. disarm some folks in tech intentionally I'm sure. And had a good time.

Kurt Neiswender: 10:38

So, so what was the turnout? How many, sign-ups did you read? 15,

Jamie Crawley: 10:44

15 for the workshop? So that was pretty great. so I think if it was a little bit more than that, it would have been, maybe a little bit harder to. Kind of walk and talk and draw and all

Kurt Neiswender: 10:56

that stuff. Sure did. So did you, you met up in the seminar room, and you just, so you didn't show like any PowerPoint, you actually just showed them the physical sketchbooks, like held them up or something, you know? Is that how you did it? Yeah. Yeah,

Jamie Crawley: 11:09

no, no PowerPoints, no laptops.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:13

I liked that, that shows. Yeah,

Jamie Crawley: 11:15

like let's, let's, you know, power around a table. let them kind of look through the books while I was talking a little bit. and, and because it was sort of, you know, Knowing that it was a new kitten, you know, the first session, you know, as a pre-conference session, people were arriving somewhere arriving that day or arriving that morning, do you know, going through registration and then coming over to the seminar, wanted to, you know, and because we were going to be immediately leaving and leaving the convention center, I didn't want to lose anybody. so wanted everybody to have a opportunity. You can arrive at one point gathering then, and then eventually. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 11:52

Yeah. That makes sense. And then, so then, and then you had, how long an hour and a half or something? Maybe

Jamie Crawley: 11:59

three hours. Oh, it was a three, three hour pre-conference workshop.

Kurt Neiswender: 12:05

And how many credits did they gift the attendees for a three. Wow. That's great. So, so you took them out. I mean, with three hours, you can really get a lot of sketching and walking. I mean, San Antonio is, you know, I'm a little jealous, cause I I've seen some buildings in, you know, on online or in photographs from, you know, from other people and your self, probably San Antonio. And there's the river. area, right. Which got kind of an overhaul or a sort of feature. I mean, we all have to explain it more to me, but because I haven't been there and that's the thing is I'd love to go check out San Antonio. I know there's a, like for example, lake Flato, right. They're based in San Antonio, right?

Jamie Crawley: 12:52

Who is based in San Antonio. they actually got a, honor award for one of their. for one of their first design award projects, it was literally there. I didn't realize it was the first, but I wasn't surprised when, when they, they made that made mention of that. because it was one that, I, I remember from their early career, and it's, it was gifted, or recognized as a, 25. Oh, oh,

Kurt Neiswender: 13:20

word honor. Award winner. That's nice. In, in the, home, what do you call it? The, city from city, I guess the host city for the conference. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah, I kinda, I, I, I have, I'm a fan of their work cause it's it's I think it's a very, all, all their projects have a unique, or let's say site-based approach and very subtle. you know, very carefully chose chosen materials. And, and I think we've even talked about some of, some of their buildings through a sketch of yours in the past. I feel like we have, if not witnessed, I know we've talked about it before we have,

Jamie Crawley: 13:57

we talked about the Austin library, which they worked on with Shepley Bulfinch. Yes,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:02

that's. That's that's.

Jamie Crawley: 14:04

And then I believe we also talked about the, their recent park structure, that they had done in, in, in San Antonio. it was a sort of an interesting sketch. I know that I've, I know that I've sketched it, but I'm not sure if we talked about it on the pod anyhow. but yeah, it was, it was neat, to, to see them get recognized and, and San Antonio is, it's a very, Kind of rich architectural history and it sort of, it can be a very walkable city in certain respects, especially I think because, you know, tourism is, is, is such a strong component of their economy, especially downtown. they have a very large convention center, and, and the convention center, the site of it is, a former world's fair world's fair site. So, So it's already sort of, you know, planned, you know, in that sort of, in that vein to allow for interesting access to different parts of the city. and, and that was, very, very evident. and then there was a, I did end up doing another sketch of, Yeah. You know, some other more modern projects as well, but, you know, later on in the, in the conference, but the workshop was fantastic. it was, a great opportunity for me to, to, to try this kind of format, and really enjoyed it. Yeah. And there was lots of time. There was lots of time to, like you say, to, to get out and walk around and.

Kurt Neiswender: 15:23

And the, yeah. So then at the end of it, what was the feedback like? I mean, you know, you got, so you got 15, 15 people with a sort of, probably of a varying degree of, sketch. What do you call it? ability and, or, you know, regularity and comfort and comfort level. Yeah. And then at the end of it, I hope they all. Excited and sort of re energized on hoping to, you know, maybe you'll see some.

Jamie Crawley: 15:53

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, you know, it was, it was interesting. I knew, I knew a few folks. so that was, it was fun to sort of connect with some people, that I connected with, who I knew were Skechers, from Instagram, that, that were happened to be at the conference and decided to attend the session. So that was fantastic to kind of connect with them and in real life, so to speak. but I think the one thing that a lot of them were surprised at was I started the exercise. We ended up walking over to the cathedral, which about a 10 minute walk from the convention center. So everybody was sort of given an opportunity to kind of get out and walk around, you know, early on in the day, and got over to the cathedral and I. Selected that location because they have a really kind of large Piata, and there's some shade and some seating and variety of different seating options. you know, kind of not knowing what, what this group was gonna necessarily look like or, you know, how comfort comfortable they were going to be with sort of sketching. And, and in doing that, gave everybody, you'll see, sort of in that image that there is some charcoal. and so. Everybody, everybody got their own, charcoal stick, and the early exercises to really, to warm up. and, and to sort of describe that process and sort of why I do that and, and how, how I've sort of grown to, realize that sort of the drawing warmup that's sort of akin to. in figure drawing the gesture, drawing the very, very kind of quick, you know, this is the form, this is the line. This is the, the weight of the object. This is the frame. this is where the, the, the action, or the, the axis is coming from, explain those kinds of concepts very, very quickly, but then gave everybody a charcoal stick and said, okay, you know, we're going to do a two minutes. And so every, you know, we, we walked into the Plaza, you know, just, you know, started to talk, gave everybody their charcoal and said, okay, don't go anywhere. just, you know, get out your. Your pad and, and everybody started, you know, half of them started to, you know, get the charcoal ready to work. And some were like, switching the charcoal to their pen or their pencil. I was like, no, no, no, everybody's going to do the charcoal. and, and then they were like, oh, okay. You know, and, and, and it was, it was fun because I think everybody a lot, and there were some of the remarks, even, and what we did was we power. Yeah, throughout the, throughout the whole thing. so I didn't necessarily do any drawing demos per se, but kind of covered over some people's shoulders. And while they were drawing, drew a little bit myself, so that I could sort of demonstrate, or at least kind of point out things that I was doing or seeing, or was challenged by, while I was working in the same, in the same location that they were under the same time constraints. and, but you know, one of the things that we also did was we kind of came back together, collect. And put the books down, very similar to what Joel described, with his urban Sketchers group. and, but in this particular case, tried to, elicit responses from folks where they could describe what they were, what they were challenged by, in their sketch or what they were. as we talked through some different techniques, if they were trying to employ some of those techniques, how was it? you know, one person noticed, who was familiar with some of my work, knew that I went across the page. I didn't just draw on one side of one side of the book. I, you know, and, and I was doing that while I was on site. And so they purposely tried to challenge themselves to do that. so that was sort of fun to see and hear, hear how that was going for them. others, you know, using the charcoal, they, they really liked the idea of, Realizing that they could make some, very, very small marks to kind of understand the composition really, really quickly. And, and then come back in and, and either work the edge or work the shadows or work the forms. we talked about. The, you know, as we moved from the charcoal to kind of picking up the pen and the pencil, one of, as we went from a two minute to a five minute sketch, I said, you know, this is your opportunity. You don't have to use the charcoal anymore. and we did, you know, cause we did a series of the two minutes sketches and what, what I tried to do was, start with a charcoal and then switch to. And kind of work between both and I'm in the same sketch and to show the mixed media, the thing that you and I've talked about several times and show them that even in as quick sketch, you can still, you know, kind of play with two different media to. Generate a composition, you know, it, it, isn't just all, rendering what you're seeing, but also sort of rendering an image on the page and sort of playing with composition and, and ideas and working them out in a finite amount of time. that was the other thing that a lot of folks commented on at the end was, They were hearing me say it, you know, very early on and then repetitively all the way through about these sort of time constraints. and then at the end they were sort of realizing that, even the longer, the, so the longer they were sketching, the easier it was coming. But then at the end, the sketch that I think you were going to show, that was our last one, was a, a 15 to 20 minute sketch and, four times. And everybody was sort of remarking that it was almost too much time. they allow everybody sort of, you know, I think the general, if there was a vote, there was a general consensus that the 10 minute sketch was about the sort of the perfect timeframe sort of this.

Kurt Neiswender: 21:18

Yeah, well that's yeah. That's, I'm glad. Yeah. I, trying to be conscious of your, this for our own time constraint that we're putting ourselves under to talk about this stuff. since you got to head out and enjoy Austin FC game, but yeah, so ending here, so this is the long sketch. It's really nice. it, you know, has a really nice. Sort of looseness to it, but that still conveys a ton of the detail and a really nice sentiment of the space. You know, you've got some people in here for scale,

Jamie Crawley: 21:49

which it's always. Yeah. I mean, and so, you know, there, a lot of folks, most, I think there was only one person that was actually from San Antonio, everybody was from somewhere else. And so knowing where we were in the city, everybody's gonna make. You know that one pilgrimage to the Alamo. you know, and so, so we, you know, so we went, you know, so we went to the Alamo and everybody found different, different locations to sketch from. and the, the one that I found was I realized as I was sort of deciding where I was going to just kind of. Sit for a second, that this particular location seemed to be where everybody was gathering to take their one, one photo in front of them, the Alamo. So, even though I wasn't necessarily drawing a particular person, they wasn't always standing as scale figures in the same location. and so that was, that was sort of, sort of

Kurt Neiswender: 22:42

fun. That's a great tie into, to. Coffee sketch podcast. Right? It's the. Intersection of old school and new school. We've got the sketch and the Instagram, probably the selfie that will wind up on the Instagram for the

Jamie Crawley: 22:57

Alamo. Exactly side by

Kurt Neiswender: 23:00

side. That's great. Well, I guess we should probably end there. Let's see. No better place. You

Jamie Crawley: 23:06

didn't talk about your conference though. Well, how was it? How was Michigan? You got a minute or two there's no

Kurt Neiswender: 23:11

time. All right. All right. All right.

Jamie Crawley: 23:13

Now I want to hear that. Give me the, give me the condensed.

Kurt Neiswender: 23:17

Well, our, so ours was not like the annual, the big conference. This was for AI, Michigan region. This was our leadership retreat. So it was on the west side of the state in Holland, Michigan. at the, it was actually held at Hayworth's headquarters. So if you're familiar with the furniture manufacturer, which. I will try and post some pictures there. Their facility is fantastic. And I wonder if our friend John Pandora at Perkinson will, Perkins and will did the renovation of the building. Yeah. Not, not that recently, but it's still a fantastic space and there's a lot of lead gold building. So that's why I think of John because he, is a big sustainability and a proponent over at that office, the Perkins mill office. So, it was a nice space. it was graciously hosted by Hayworth. They did sponsor the event really well and took us out to dinner even the night before. And, So, those are very, kind of a fun, like you said, in the beginning, this for, for me, for a Michigan event was the first face-to-face event to, to go to, which I kind of hemmed and hawed a little bit, over, over the thing. But then as things started to look a little better here in the state of Michigan and the attendance list, wasn't gigantic. So. I said, you know, I'll go for it. And luckily enough, I was able to sort of audible back to, in-person being that I'm on the board as a director from the Flint area. it was nice to have the board meeting, you know, the day before or the afternoon before, before dinner, with the rest of the board that I hadn't really seen. I mean, I knew a lot. I knew everybody on the board, but I hadn't seen them. And over a year. So, it's nice to hold a board meeting and, you know, connect with the staff at AI, Michigan again, and, and, you know, kind of almost centers things back a little bit and you, you don't feel so, Out on an island, even when you know, the chapters are all across the state, you can kind of get together. Anyway, actually, you know, the last thing I'll say is, there was a great keynote from the director of HR, for Hayworth, who, who made a good point about virtual life. Right? So there's in a face-to-face situation. Energy is exchanged between, say a speaker and oops, sorry. a receiver in the room or two people having a conversation or exchanging not, not only words, but they're actually, you know, electrons are moving back and forth. Right. but when you go into this virtual world, it's really a one-way. Exchange or output and there's nothing coming back, so it can be very draining. And so to keep that in perspective, as you know, as we try and mix modes between virtual and in-person and, you know, think about the energy that we can. Still gain from each other and how you also need to take a little break for yourself sometimes with all the virtual stuff. So, anyway, so I think, you know, I I'll stop there because I know you got to go. And, I think that was a key takeaway for me. We'll probably circle back to, you know,

Jamie Crawley: 26:25

say, you know, it's, it's great that you, kind of made that point about the keynotes and I think sort of that kind of concept, cause, Usually one of the things, that will draw me to a conference, in, or kind of engage me is the, the idea of, you know, hearing a particular person speak, you know, especially with the keynote, you know, they, they clearly are, or hopefully are getting up for it. and kind of, you know, crafting a really strong message. and. If the conference organizers have done a good job, of, of, of getting keynote speakers, you know, you can, you can certainly get that. I think in, in Texas this case, I think it was, They really had some excellent ones this time. I think you would have really enjoyed it. they, they had three, over the course of two days. so th th the, the pre conference day that I, I, that I'm referring to is also where our board meeting lives. And so I'm not on the board. that's not my thing. well

Kurt Neiswender: 27:18

you have my, my, my, my,

Jamie Crawley: 27:19

where my workshop was actually during the board meeting. So I was very happy. I was very happy about that. but, the keynotes that we had though, there were three, we had, Brian Lee, from New York. I don't know if you've heard Brian speak before. but he's, if you do get the chance, he's, he's pretty, pretty fantastic. I've heard him speak before in Dallas. and, And then he he's done a lot. H he's done like a south by Southwest with, Michael Ford, in the past, and has done some stuff with monument lab and, but his, I don't know if I'll pronounce his firm correctly. It's co-located. Anyhow, it's up in new Orleans. and, and, and, you know, design is protest and, you know, it's, it's, it's really, really good work. and, and he always, I think his, you know, for every time that I've seen him speak or, whatnot, I think it's, it's all very timely. and, it's not just. Sort of a rehash of, of his work or, or the work that he's been involved in or the, or the causes or, you know, efforts or it's, it's, it's all very timely. and I, you know, it's almost like he's writing it the night before. and so I, I think his, he, he, he was, he was a great addition, past. she, she spoke as well, as, as, as one of the keynotes, and then our new fellow right here, a brand new fellow. and, and now I'm now working with, David Jace. I dunno if you knew that or not. she's, she's recently joined, joined their, his firm. Oh, this year I believe. but it's still based in New York city, and doing her, say it loud, kind of. I w I would say conference, you know, exhibit, but it's, it's so much more than that. and there's a, a growing kind of web web component and interview component and multimedia component, and which we spoke to. and, and, and I think, but what was. Really evident in, in, in, especially in her, her talk was, sort of this notion that you're sort of saying about kind of that level of engagement and that energy that you can draw from, from a speaker and an audience. I think that was, if, if hers had been delivered, in, just a zoom environment. I think it would, the, the, the message would all still be there, but I don't think the energy would have been the same. and I don't think that, I think people wouldn't have necessarily the fact that they could go outside and actually see, some of her say it loud exhibit on display, you know, immediately outside. Oh, wow. you know, the, the keynote was. You know is important. I mean, there's, there's something about, especially as architects about place and, that sort of level of engagement. And then the other one was Marlon Blackwell.

Kurt Neiswender: 29:47

Cool. Wow. You guys really. Wrangled wrangled some good ones. Yeah, you're right. I am. I wish I was there loved to, we'll have to try. And, what do you call it? Weave our way back in with the coffee sketch podcast maybe next year, since, you know, we, we had two years ago, right? The Petra, the church culture. And now, anyway, so yeah, that sounds, It sounds like a great show. And with that, you've got a better show to get to.

Jamie Crawley: 30:18

I just have another show to get to, well,

Kurt Neiswender: 30:21

it was good. Good to catch up and we'll, we'll do another one soon and, enjoy the game. Go burn Viva Verde,

Jamie Crawley: 30:28

right?