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Oh, look how young I was. Hey, Jamie. We both were younger than yes. I'll let you, Jamie, I'll let you introduce our special guest. Well, I, I, I will say that, yes, we do have a special guest that we were hoping to get on a little earlier, this summer, but, I got to hang out with Sterling. in Austin, and we were going to do kind of a fun first for the podcast where both of us were going to be here in the studio and sort of trying to pull this off. Didn't work out, but he's back again and we're happy to have him. So, this is a very old friend of mine. I'm very excited to have him on the podcast. Kurt has also spent some time with him as well. so Sterling, why don't you take, why don't you introduce yourself very briefly for our audience? Hello, I'm James Miller. I'm the photographer you finally got on the map here. yeah, so, yeah, I went to, I am a literal old friend of Jamie's. we went to school together at A& M back in the, 90s. And, yeah, we, we, knew each other through, through organizations and AIS. And yeah, that Langford Hotel shirt, I don't know how, that shirt's gotta be at least a quarter century old, like, I, I've outworn all my shirts, like, it's all holes, and I'm like twice my double, like, body size, so I'm very impressed that you were able to kind of just fit that on, and after all these years, I, I, it might be a sleeve for me, so. Yeah, this, this, this was, this was the year that Sterling was the chapter president. and had the brilliant idea of like, you know, wanting to have some, a little bit more provocative, designs for, for, architecture shirts instead of just the, the normal, like, Hey, we went to college here kind of thing. So, yeah, this has a gas mask on the back. So it's like the, this is, this is the very beginning of the fallout studio. So, yes. Yeah, I reme, I, I do reremember. I forgot who drew that one. Me. Did you hear that one? I'm sorry. It's been forever. is so me. What makes it, what makes it provocative? Is it the Langford hotel part or the ma gas mask or the whole thing? It, it was just, I remember the gas mask was a little controversial, wasn't it? Yeah. The, yeah, the gas mask. No one was really super excited about the gas mask. I, I had done it as a photography project in the summer. like real photography. So that's, that's another reason, like, like Jamie's brain talk about a little bit. Jamie's, Jamie's brain making all these connections. It's like sterling photography. Like Jamie in a wet lab. They sold really well. Yeah. Oh, oh my God. Yeah. Like these were like, when, like hotcakes. I mean, there was, yeah, the shirts were the shirts. I mean, they, they, they definitely flew off the shelves, so like, that's how we knew each other, because like I was. Like, so this is a weird thing. I don't know, like, how they wrote me into this whole president thing or whatever, but, like, I'm a complete introvert. And, like, that school is gigantic. like, it's, it's over, like, the whole college, I think, is over a thousand students. And, like, RAAS was, like, the largest chapter in the nation. It was like 250 or 300 at that time. yeah, and I'm the type of person, like, I like these, these kind of one on one conversations that we're having. And so, like, I'm having to do, like, all sorts of stuff I'm completely uncomfortable with. but yeah, so that's how I started. I'm, I'm originally from New Jersey. I went down to A& M. I had a full ride and I was like, I'm gonna go down to like College Station because why wouldn't I go there? and yeah, it was a really good time. wound up going to grad school at NC State. practiced architecture for about 10 years and while I was practicing architecture, I picked up photography. I, similar to Jamie, I took it when I was an undergrad when it was film, but never really did anything with it. And then when I was in grad school, I got really sick. I actually had to drop out of grad school twice. And so during the times that I was sick, I still had access to the design school. So, I would pick up like the small digital two megapixel camera that we had and kind of go out and shot. And so, I started integrating that like in my architectural studies and, you know, my friends was like, Oh, this is, this is pretty good. You know, they're like, your designs are okay, but your photos are, are, are. and so as I was practicing, I, you know, I was very fortunate. I work for a small firm and, I worked in multiple states. And so I got to do a little bit of everything from business development and marketing, website design, do architectural design and construction and site management, kind of doing a little bit of everything. So during all my travels, I had a, camera, little, just small camera that I kind of shot during my travels. join some photo clubs and just started entering shows. I started winning them. kind of at the same time, my boss, was like, Hey, you want to shoot pictures for our firm? And I was like, Yeah, I'd like to stay employed. So he bought a camera is like, learn how to use this. It was a digital SR, like five or six megapixel. So I started, you know, I mean, they weren't great or anything like that. But you know, I started shooting buildings. And then so kind of just one thing led to the next. And you know, I'm kind of doing a little bit on the side. And then You know, the, the economy goes kaput in 2008, 2009. And, ironically, I was still one of the few people that still had a job. They pretty much let everybody go except for me and someone else. And, you know, and I was kind of doing work as a contractor. I'm in this, it's May 2009, and I'm in this studio. It's a nice day outside. It's an empty office. And I'm like, you know, I've wanted to be an architect since I was like 10. And for the first time in my life, I was like, what am I doing here? So I quit. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's the, that's the story I want. Like, you know, like, like, that's the underline, like, like, because I, because I know, For the first time in my life, I never felt that way. I was just like, you know what, I, You know, and, you know, during that time, you know, photography had become like a real passion. It was very unintentional. I was, I wasn't quite sure I was going to be an architectural photographer, but I was like, I want to do photography. Like, you know, if I don't find out if I can do this now, I mean, I was in my mid 30s at that point. Like, when am I going to? You know, this was a kind of a prime opportunity to do that. Like, architecture was going to be there if I failed at it. Unfortunately, I haven't and so 14 years later, I'm still doing it and, kind of traveling throughout the South. I live between Raleigh, North Carolina and San Antonio, Texas. And, yeah, so, this thing went way farther than I anticipated. That's a great synopsis. You're, you're really, you're really good at that. I, I need to practice, my, my, my summary of self. Well, that's the thing. I don't practice. The more I practice, the, the, like, I, I just learn. So part of that I learned actually while I was at, with the AIS, because I was always getting nervous in front of speeches and I would stammer. And what I learned as I got older was like, You already know what you're talking about. Like, and everybody else doesn't really know. Right. So who cares? I like that. I like that. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, and the thing about, you know, that story too, Sterling is just, you know, and, and I've, I've heard you kind of summarize it, you know, a couple different ways, but it's, yeah, you were one of the, you were one of the. I mean, you knew me in, in, in design school, you know, in undergrad. And I was one of those people that was like clearly a designer, you know, clearly artistic, you know, creative, but I was never convinced that I was going to become an architect. Like I was, I was, you know, that was not sort of. You know, I knew people in our program that, you know, definitely, you know, they wanted to be an architect. They were really working hard to be architect. They were trying to figure out all the different aspects of it. you know, kind of, you know, trying to soak it all in. And you were that person who was just like, you know, I want to be an architect, you know, and it was very, very evident to me that you were going to become an architect. And then when you told me in oh nine, you know, you think I'm crazy. and, and I was like, you know what, you know, I'd seen some of the, yeah, I mean, I'd seen some of your other stuff, you know, and I knew you were doing the photography for the firm and then for yourself, but it was like, I was like, you know what, you know, and I was sort of where I was sitting, I was sort of the same thing, you know, the firm is like, you're looking around a lot of empty chairs, you know, you still have a job and, you know, and, and, you know, and I'm like, no, you know what? You know, there's, there's sometimes there's a time to jump and, and you jumped and it's, it's been, it's been wonderful to watch. I mean, you know, cause it's, and to hear, hear how you've developed this business and, and still stayed you the whole time. I mean, that's, I mean, that's the whole part that I love about it. yeah, I mean, I, you know, in architecture is really kind of easy to, lose your soul. and I've kind of been through that, especially like, when I was in grad school, I had a lot of struggles just personally and emotionally. I, you know, I went through, like, you know, just creative kind of stumbling blocks during that time. And photography was kind of a way for me to kind of. Dig out of that. And so, you know, I don't think I could become the photographer that I am now if I didn't go. I don't think I could have done it when I was younger, not to the extent like, you know, I, I know more of who I am when I started this than I did when I was an architect. Right. So I think that's a huge difference. Well, and I think it's, it's, it may be akin to Kurt, you know, when you and I've talked to others and just amongst ourselves about that. It's the maturing aspect and not maturing like an age thing. It's not an ageist kind of thing. Like you can't do it when you're young or something like that, but it's the, it's, you know, everybody's on their own trajectory, you know, and some of them are super fast and some of them are slower, but as long as you're sort of, and you can feel it like as a designer or as a creative, you know, forget even designers as a creative. And you're like, I am much better now than I was five years ago. And. And it's, it's not that the work is totally different, but it's, you know, you've almost feel like you're more in more connection with it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I know what architecture school is about now more than I did when I was a student, which sucks! Because, like, you know, It does! Because I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I was a student. You know, when I go back, you know, I've got, you know, friends who are, you know, in higher ed and, you know, I go back and they're like, hey, you know, come do a critique or whatever. It's interesting because you see these kids, some of these kids, You know, it's kind of similar. Some of them have like a huge erection, and then I see some of them, and I'm like, that's the look that was on my face. I was absolutely, totally lost. And like, it's weird as an adult because I, you know, I remember I was doing, it was a portfolio critique, and I was talking to this kid, it was just a desk critique, and I was just like, okay, so what is it, like, why do you want to do this? And he was just stuck, like, I was like, and then I, like, I was just like, well, why are you here? And like, he got stuck. I was like, look, I'm not trying to trip you up, but like, this is what people want to know. Like this, like, if you don't know who you are, like, you're not gonna be able to tell anybody and like, that's what, when people are looking to hire, they want to, like, everybody can do all these sections and drawings and like, that's, that's not unique, like, people want to know who you are as an individual and I didn't learn that until probably my late 20s when it was really like, I was out of school. Yeah, I feel like, my, my Experience, you know, so I, I was in a 5 year program, so it went all the way through to a professional degree. Unlike, well, I think a and M is a does it do a 5? No, it's like a 4 plus 2, but they're sort of switching some stuff around now. Yeah. Okay. So, so I think, so in my case, so you have like 5 full years where you're like, you start in studios from year 1 and you're, you know, like, You're deep in it like the whole time, but I definitely was it. It didn't all click. I would say until probably halfway through 4th year when I'm like, Oh, I think I have an idea on how this sort of works. Like, we did, you know, you do a housing semester. You know, so you do little bits of apartments and stuff like that, and then you do like a museum or a library, you know, you do these variety of different project types. And so you kind of like figure, figure out how to sort of assemble these things. And then the fourth and fifth years are, are these sort of comprehensive experiences. So you try and integrate a little bit more, complexity, like systems, things like that. And, some of it's, I wouldn't say, I mean, I wouldn't say I was like, oh, I'm, aha, I'm an architect now, you know, although, you know, when you graduate, you're like, oh, you're hiring me. Well, I want to be the designer, you know, because that's why they teach you in school is to how to design things and you come out and you're like, oh, I have to draw bathrooms for, you know, and staircases and blah, blah, blah. But, No, some of it started to click, I think, in my fourth year and, and, and then, which then helped me sort of, sort of do something a little more strategic in my fifth year. And then, I, I don't know. I, I, I, I, I think like we, Jamie mentioned before the, the maturing part is. I mean, I'm still on that path, right. To sort of seasoning, seasoning this whole thing. And, and I recently went off on my own and 2021 sort of spawned out of the pandemic. and I've learned a lot more about the business side of things on top of just. Drawings to get permits and things like that. but the, Yes. See, Kurt, now you need to like take a cue from, from Sterling and set up your satellite office in Texas. So you can, you can, you can have the Flint office and then the, the, the, the Texas office too. So I could be in the cloud, like just the cloud, One of the things like with architecture education, I mean, kind of some of the public education that I wish. We had a little bit more because it teaches like one of the thing I love about design school. It teaches you like critical thinking and like how to think. But I don't think it takes into consideration all the different diversity of ways of how we think right like it took me a long time. So I'll give you an example. So I, I'm a, I, I, I, I'm a chess player. So I, I played chess in high school and college. And so one of the things that infuriated me about, or infuriating my chess teachers In high school was you go on a clock. I would never take enough time to think. I didn't have the patience for it, right? It's a long game. It's a 60 minute game. And I was like, well, I'm done thinking, you know, I was very similar, like, as a test taker. Like, the answer is C. Like, why am I waiting to do all this? Right. And so when I went to A& M, I was on the chess team and I played quick chess and I was so much better than many of my opponents. Right. Because I was able to kind of think in that way, right? So with architecture, I think one of the struggles that I had is architecture is such a long process, right? Like you're going through all this and, you know, it gives me maybe, maybe a little bit too much time to think. And so like with photography, like, I mean, everybody always thinks it's magic, but like it's the process. There's pre visualization and especially with architectural photography, it's a design process. But that process is shorter, and then I go to the next one, right? It turns out I'm much better at that, right? And so, like, I think sometimes it's a matter of kind of pairing, like, how you think with kind of really where you really kind of fit in. I think the, to, to add to that or ping pong off of that is the, it's a little bit of intuition, what I would call intuition. So you're, you're, you're, you knowing that your chess game You know, your moves can be made in a quick fashion is sort of, I think, built out of an internal intuition, knowing that the moves the moves are there and and then and I'm teaching now to as well as practice and a lot of my students. And not, not to their fault, but they, they kind of go, Oh, I'm, I've, I've finished like, you know, here's the design and it's like Monday. Right. And there's still three more days in the week to, you know, three more classes to get to Friday, you know, to the next studio crit and, and trying to. So, yeah, it's, it is this, it is a lot more drawn out and, and this sort of like. That what we tend to call the iterative process, not necessarily the best part about or the best definition of the iterative process, but, but along those lines of the iterative, though, is that it's it. There's still, I mean, to kind of pull you guys together. It's it is iterative. There is a speed and a pace to it. That is individualized and sort of understanding that about yourself is the key right and so like just like what sterling's describing is exactly, you know, I think any student in a design school is like, how do I fit in? What is all this stuff? And then and then how do I work? You know, I mean, and that's the thing is, if you don't focus on that third one at any point in your trajectory and only start doing it. Thank you. Once you're out, then, you know, you do have these kind of moments of being completely lost and, and I think that that, you know, intuition and, you know, and about, about the process, about yourself, the iterative aspect, you know, kind of leads us to the moment now that you're teaching in, Kurt, you know, where you're seeing these students who You know, get to a solution, right, you know, some moment it's and, you know, is it that instagrammable moment, right? It's like, there's my image and I'm done, like I've snapped the picture of it and, and I think that that immediacy of that capture and like, you know, you know, what do I need to do next? You know, it's like, you know, it's complete is something that You know, is is something that is sort of plaguing, you know, I think creatives and design schools, you know, I think it's, it is a bit of a generational thing. I mean, from a photography point of view, I'm curious. As you're seeing it now, and, you know, what other thoughts do you have about that? Yeah, so, I've listened to some of your recent podcasts about that interim process because it's come up a lot in your discussions. I'm just gonna be similar and a little divergent in some ways. So, I'm similar in that, like, You know, I think another thing, like, and I don't know if it's the fault of us in architecture, we always present this final product, like one of the, and if any of my clients are watching this, I totally apologize. One of the things that drives me crazy is when they have this rendering, and they're like, we want to have a picture of this rendering, right? And so the intent is to show the client, hey, we're able to do this or whatever. But what it doesn't ignore, like, it doesn't, it's just like, but that rendering was done at the end of SD. Maybe it was done sometime during DD, right? You know, there's a whole value engineering process, like, there's a whole architecture, there's a whole design process that's been done that's not being shown, and so everybody has the impression that This is this rendering is the final product, right? So I just volunteered with, for a weekend with the Nomad project line camp here in North Carolina, and you see it even in the kids, right? Because when the kids are going up for presenting, they want to, they don't think about presenting the stuff that was in between. They think about presenting the stuff at the end and the end. One of the things I love about photography. It's like, once it's the end, like, I just go back to another process. Like, I don't care about the end. Like, that's the thing that, like, with me, with my patients, and the way that I think, like, I like to be able to go from process to process to process. If I were to go back to architecture, I'd kill it. Because, like, I know, I know what I'm doing now. I know how I work. Whereas before, like, I didn't, like, I just have to repeat. And I didn't, you know, it was just such a longer process. And so like, I get to do that with photography. I get to understand it in a way. And in a way that I just didn't fully appreciate before, you know, sort of thing, like, ironically, it's made me more excited about architecture than I was when I was in it. Well, and along those lines, you've talked to me a little bit about sort of that dialogue that you have with clients, you know, and so. I think in your own experience, you know, aside from being, you know, somebody who went to architecture school, and now being a photographer for architects, you know, in, in, in the body of work that you do, you're also dealing with those architects in a very sort of different dialogue. I mean, how, yeah, I mean, can you talk a little bit about that? As another creative in that process, I think, because that speaks to that rendering thing, you know, as well. There is, it's a little bit easier and more difficult at the same time. It's easier in the fact that if I tell them, hey, because like some, you know, similar to your clients, everybody's across the board. There are some people who have not gone through this process before. There's others are like, this is not my first rodeo. I've been with a lot of different photographers, right? You know, sort of thing. And so on one end, it's just like, well, we just want you to do your magic and you know, do what you see, which is complete. It's the equivalent of saying, Hey, we want you to do a 2000 square foot house on this flat piece of land. Go at it, you know, essentially. And then on the other side, there's, you know, especially when you're doing like with a top 100, 200 firm, a lot of them have marketing arms and, you know, maybe, and some of them are a little bit more intentional, like some of them, you know, You know, they're thinking about representation during the entire process. So they're, they have kind of careful control of renderings throughout the whole process. You know, they don't necessarily, especially like if they already have kind of a kit of parts that they're working with, you know, they don't necessarily deviate from that template. So a lot of times I just had to shoot in Charlotte where I'm just looking at the rendering. I'm looking at Like, okay, all right, cool. Well, like, this is, this is it, you know, sort of thing. Yeah, you just kind of set up the shot. and so, but everything, everybody else is kind of in the middle. And so, like, my role is basically to kind of figure out, okay, where, where they sit. And then kind of ping pong over that, right? And so there's a very kind of intuitive nature in dealing with that. a lot of time, you know, so, for example, like one of the things I always try to understand, which I think gives me an advantage as having a previous career in design is like, I always want to know the essence of what it is that they have want to accomplish with whatever the structure is. It doesn't matter if it's a park, right? Doesn't matter if it's a museum, doesn't matter if it's a gas station, like there's always some sort of movement or motion or moment that is in all these things. And so my task is to translate that, not necessarily just in a way that impresses other architects, but And to the general public. I think that's very important, like, you know, it's, it's important for the general public to look at a picture in a way that doesn't necessarily, it may not necessarily be as impressive to other architects. I think it's important for the general public to look at like, Oh, so that's, that's why, you know, I think that's, you know, maybe it's not necessarily implicitly part of my job. But I make it part of it. Right. It's like, it's like, you know, evoking a response. You know, it's something that's visceral from, from the viewer. and do you think that that comes also because, you know, you have that artistic, you know, side to your work as well that you're bringing? I mean, that you're bringing some of that to the way that Yeah, I think a lot of it is also the reason I got into architecture. Like, you know, it's the same reason, like, you know, some architects want to create sculptures. Like, I wanted to create something different. Like, I, I got into architecture because, like, if I had to do everything completely over, I was just going to Technon. Like, you know, I, you know, you know, I didn't Yeah. You, you and I have had that. You've had that you've, you and I have had that discussion about, I was not, I didn't realize our economics service industry. Like we know how to do it, we know what to do, but we don't have the capital to do it though. Well, right. You don't have to, you know, I think, I don't want to interrupt you, but I think. Kind of what you were saying with and then as Jamie followed up was, you know, as now, you know, a business owner myself and a member of the Entre architect community, which is sort of for small firm architects. I've learned a lot of things that we, we are great at talking to ourselves, right? As architects in studio in school and then in practice at AI functions, things like that. But. I think what you were getting at with the way you were under under no matter what the building type, right? A gas station or, you know, a high profile building. If if you can match the intention of the design to the place and capture that image, then it will speak more closely to a client or user. Of that architecture and and better, right? So have a stronger connection to, say the, the occupant of the building, then to the architect or another architect, right? Because it has this relationship to who's the client, right? And, and who is the actual. Beneficiary of this, of this piece of art or building and the photo. So then the photo appears either in marketing material on your website or someone else's website. But if somebody stumbles across it, it's speaking to the person that wants to buy more of that architecture, not necessarily other architects. I guess is my point, right? And that was something that. I probably didn't endear myself to my fellow students, especially when I was an undergrad, because I didn't hang out with y'all once Studio was out. Because, so my rationale back then was architects are not going to be my clients. So when I go to the business school, I'm going to talk to them. I'm going to talk to, I'm going to talk to the landscape architecture and construction program. I did that a lot. I talked to everybody almost like outside of architecture and then like fast forward, like you are actually in my client. So what do I know, you know, sort of thing. But like, I've always, I've always, always took in like outside influence. Like even when I was practicing architecture, like. I studied, like, photographers and painter, like, and, and, and writers, like, I've always just been interested in the, I don't know, the ordinary, the everyday sort of thing, because that's what we're, what we deal with. I really, I really like that. It's just very interesting. I, I would say, I would, in comparison, I guess, most of my, most of my time was spent looking at architecture. Either in Jamie and I talked about this a lot, like going to the architecture library and just pulling out books and looking at the, you know, reading plans and things like that and studying, I guess, about architecture or trying to absorb and absorb. So, and then I did probably spend, probably a lot more time with my fellow architecture students. Definitely. It sounds like more than you. I mean, I love that premise of like, you're like, yeah, I mean, that's a lot of foresight. You know, for a young person, so, well, and it's, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting too, because I think it's, you know, Sterling started talking about the economics and sort of, it's, you know, I think it's, you know, when you get to a certain point, you know, in your life and you're kind of like, I've got all these skills, I, I see all these sort of structural things that I could have affected in a different way. If, if I had the means, you know, if, if I had, you know, the connections, the capital, the, you know, the, the other connections that I could have developed. Even knowing who you are now with, you know, the skills that sort of are in, you know, some of, some of this creativity and intuitions that's innate, you know, there's stuff that's trained. you know, we're trained to do some stuff, but there's also some innate stuff. And I know that, you know, I know you're, you're sort of hinting at some of that Sterling and, and I, and I love it. and then, and maybe, maybe that's when we bring you back for another podcast and we can really dive into that because I think it's, you know, the amount of work that you've seen in your role as an architectural photographer. sort of separate from the process and then also just your, your, the states that you've traveled through and now having a business in two different states, you know, you know, coming from Jersey, you know, and, and down to Texas. I mean, it's all these different things that you, you've, you have a good perspective of all these different things that you've seen. and I think it, it gives, an interesting tale about development, you know, for, for architects and, and as designers, but because you're, you're just slightly removed from it because of the career path that you have now, but you're still engaged with it because either these are still the people that you either went to school with or engaged with professionally. You know, and, and our mentoring now, you know, meant like you talked about the students and you can, you talk a little bit about that. You were, you were telling Kurt and I ahead of time, you know, I was asking you about your new speaking engagement, you know, this fall that I'm excited about, cause it brings you, brings you back to Austin, but, you know, can you talk a little bit about how that, that developed and sort of. And kind of, you know, you know, when I was a student, I was very engaged with and with. kind of a lot of social issues, you know, whether it involved, architectural school, the profession of architecture, race, gender, all of those things. I was pretty vocal, probably to the annoyance of many people. and once I got into grad school, it was just like, I gotta work, like, you know, and so I just didn't do anything for one. Also, I just, You know, I wasn't as successful as I thought I was going to be, and so there was just kind of a long time period where I didn't do any of that. And so now that I have reached kind of a certain modicum of success, I was like, Alright, you know what, I'm, I'm almost 50, I'm in a position where I can actually, like, start talking and people are like, Well, you're just saying something because of whatever, like, I don't want to have that. as something that people are going to start, you know, launching at me. and so I joined, you know, I started joining organizations. I joined NOMA a couple years ago. And so, you know, I talked to the national office. I was like, okay, so first of all, I'm in two states. Can I split between two different chapters? And they're like, Yeah, we hadn't thought about that, but cool, you know, sort of thing. And so, so I split between the North Carolina and then the, the South Texas, chapter as well. And so the way that this design talk series, by the Austin Architectural Foundation, I think this year, I think from what I understand, like, they basically tag team with another organization for every month. And so then the month of November, they tag team with NOMA. And so, The Noma chapter basically. And you know, the weird thing is I've only, I think, interacted with them a couple of times. I've been at a meeting and then also, we had an, we had an event with students at UTSA where they would just kind of talk to us. So I, you know, and of course, you know, I'm traveling all the time. So their interaction compared to like North Carolina, where I've been here for 25 years has been actually pretty limited. and so, yeah. You know, through LinkedIn, a couple of people that I had met, they kind of said, Hey, would you be interested in the design talk series? And I was like, me, like, you know, and so, you know, I'm, I'm not one to say no. So I said yes. And so, you know, I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to talk about. I know it's about, you know, a half hour, 40 minutes. I'll probably figure out a couple of weeks beforehand, but, you know, from what I understand it's kind of talking about, like, Who you are, kind of talk about like a little bit about your process. Maybe give some, you know samples and things like that. I'm not exactly quite sure how that's gonna manifest itself quite yet Especially since I do have a shorter process, right, you know So it's gonna be a matter of like what lane do I really like want to talk about or products? I really want to talk about yeah Well, you know, I I thought about it is you know, when I when when you sort of you know, tease the announcement you know to some friends and And and you and I've been talking about this sort of You know, talking in different audiences and kind of getting the activist side of us. You know, I, you know, I've always referred to it, you know, as myself as the shit disturber, you know, and, and I've had, it's kind of one of the best, you know, compliments, you know, when, you know, one of your former professors refers to you that way. you know, thanks Rodney. but, you know, it's, you know, with, with, for you, it's with love as well, because it's like, you know, I know that You know, the things that you're talking about have a completely different perspective than mine, you know, and, and then when you described it to me that you felt like you were at a point in your career that you could do these things, and, and you were being really deliberate and intentional about it, but at the same time had reservations about how far do you go, you know, and you're sort of bouncing some of that, you know, back off of me and other friends and, you know, and, and I think that that's, you know, I think. What it made me think of, honestly, you know, with, with this new speech was when I got both of you to speak on the same stage in front of the biggest IMAX in Texas, you know, with, with the premise that it was, you know, how can I get 10 people? similar to what you're describing, don't typically get asked to talk to an audience of their peers or to an architecture audience in that kind of a way where they're, they're talking deliberately about their. Themselves, their process, the things that matter to them, you know, the issues of the day, and I think that, you know, I think that that event in Galveston in 2019, for the Texas Society of Architects was, you know, something that they probably didn't even expect, but at the same time was probably one of the best Pecha Kuchas they've ever had. and, and not because I curated it, because I think you actually had 10 unique voices that were on that stage that all deserved to be there and all had really, really great stories. you know, they only delivered them in like, you know, eight minutes. You know, so the fact that you've got 45 or whatever now, I mean, man, I'm, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, this is material. Yeah. I'm happy to be in these spots now. And, you know, these are the spots that I always wanted to be in. Cause, you know, again, like, you know, not many of us kind of get these privileges. And so I, you know, it's one of those things, you don't use it, you lose it. You know, and if anything, you know, I wanted to be better for whoever kind of comes after me. And so once I built, you know, got to a certain spot, you know, no, am I where I want to be? No, but I'm to a spot where I can, I can talk and, you know, do certain things. And, you know, even things like just on the job that I wouldn't have necessarily done before. And, you know, this happened, I think I told you this story before, but this was a baby about four or five years ago on a project and it was, It was a, subsidized project that I was going to do an architectural shoot for. And, they, they, they happened to include me on this email chain. And they were like, Hey, so for this one, we want to have like a diverse group of people, like, you know, as, as scale figures, like in this project. And like, I'm looking at this and I'm like, I can't, why are y'all putting me in this position? I gotta say something now. And so, like, I emailed, I was like, look, the first thing I did was like, let me see who's on this email chain. Like, before I say anything. So I looked at everybody and I'm like, okay, well, everybody's away. Alright, well, okay, guys, so look, I said, I said, as someone who has shot a lot of your projects, there's been, I forgot exactly how I phrased it, but I was like, there's a lot of white people in your projects. And the, if you start doing this now, in a project that's subsidized, that is one hell of a statement. All, the whole email chain just comes to a screeching halt. Just stops. And then like the president of the company emails me back, like, a few hours later. Like, it was going, like, it was a lot of emails flying across. I was surprised they included me. And they're like, yeah, you know, you're right, but I was just like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of in a position where, like, I kind of have to say something if I see something, even if it means I lose the work or if I lose the client, and that's not necessarily something I, I don't, I don't think I would have done or could have done, I guess I could have, but I'm not sure if I would have done that in my 20s. Right. Well, and I think that even that, you know, that story, you know, it, you actually care, you know, I mean, you care, you know, you care about it on, you know, so many different levels, right? You know, and you're sort of, you're caring to even just to tell them, you know, it's, you know, that's, You know, that says a lot. you know, and, and, and especially in, in a role that you have as a sole proprietor, I mean, you know, it's, you know, these are, you know, these are clients so that, that intersection of those two things, those two worlds is, you know, it, it, it doesn't certainly come easy for anybody. I mean, you know, in, in, in that terms, in that, cause that's not even, that's not even advocacy. That's just living your life. You know, that's, that's, that's, that's you. Like I'm, I'm in a room, you know, and they're having, it's like, you know, that email chain could have been you sitting around the conference table with them all. Is that everybody cares, like it's a physical hurt sort of thing. Like it's a physical love, care, pain for everybody involved. Right. You know, sort of thing. And so every day you're kind of walking this tightrope with everybody. Because, like, every day I'm working on some Like, it was a little bit different with clients, because You know, I don't know if you're working like with a house or a business or whatever Like there's a certain detachment that you can have at a certain point, right? But like it's a one to one thing with y'all And so like I I love it and I care about it and you love it And so it's it's like it multiplies against each other and it's a very kind of intense sort of thing Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, I think too. I mean for sterling at least though it in that situation you're you're kind of You're not on the, you're not a employee of the firm doing the photography for the project. So you kind of have the, a little bit of a separation from, yes. And, and, and it probably helped too, that you help that you've, photography work for other projects for the same client. So you had this sort of. Portfolio of, of imagery that, yeah, you know, there's been a certain faith that's been built up over the years, you know, sort of thing. And, you know, again, if I, if I had been a year in, I might not have said anything, you know, sort of thing. I mean, that's just being real about it. But, you know, I w I'm in a position now where, and that's part of why I'm saying things now out loud, because It's not that I can afford to lose the clients or whatever. It's not like I'm just discarding it, but like I'm willing not to work with people. Like I'm cool. I don't need it all. Like if this, if, if, if me saying this is gonna somehow, you know, negatively impact me financially, then so be it. And, you know, I'm in a position that I can do that. And I mean, I think that's the better move, but we can, I mean, that could definitely go on into a, a path. Like, I think Jamie is giving me the, the eyes. No, I was, I was going to say that, you know, it was, I was going to say, you know, we, we, we skipped one thing that sort of, you know, we're only, you know, like, yeah, like it's in the name. Yeah. It's part of the thing, you know? So I was going to ask like Sterling, you know, so what's, what's the typical coffee? You know that, that you've been, so I really need to disappoint y'all. I've actually listened to a couple of your recent podcasts. I am not a coffee drinker. I am one of Yes. I you, you're that second guest now that's like, yes, I am that second guest. So congratulations. So the story behind coffee is, I didn't like the taste when I was 18, so I got by on sugar. Ah, that's basically been my advice. Right. And so, you know, which, you know, I've had to kind of give up, for the most part, but, you know, yeah, now I still, you know, occasionally I'll drink coffee. Like, if I have to be exceptionally tired, I know I have like a 13 or 14 hour, you know, hour shoot sort of thing, but I'm one of those aggravating people if, let's say even if, And I don't really do this, but like, you know, if I were to stay up all night, I will perk up at 6 o'clock in the morning automatically. I'm 1 of those aggravating people. and so I don't need the coffee in that regards. The brain just kicks in and goes, dude, it's six, you've got stuff to do, get going. Yeah. Well, you know, that's okay. We, we, we are not, discriminated, we don't discriminate against people that don't drink coffee. No, but, so, so. They become our special, special guests. This, you know, this was, I don't hate it, I actually enjoy it. Yeah. So, so this, this'll still be coming your way. I appreciate it. Cause, cause I finally got mine. And, and, there's a little hole in the back that Kurt likes to, you know. So what's on the front cover there? So that, is one of Jamie's sketches. so that's Carlo Scarpa, Castelvecchio. and, and the coffee is quite good. Okay. I will have to say, so. What, what kind of, Like what kind of coffee is it? It's like a, it's a, well it's from Rootless in Flint, Michigan. but it's hazelnut and milk chocolate. And the milk, the milk, the milk chocolate really does come through, quite nicely. So. All right, I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to giving it a shot. Yeah, it's good. So let's see. So you are, I mean, I think, yeah, so we, we, we might not include sterling in the same camp as Evelyn because he actually will drink coffee and, and so, you know, it's just, it's not a, a sort of regular. It's not a ritual. It's not the ritual. I'm not a connoisseur. It's not a ritual. if it was a ritual, I definitely would become a connoisseur because there's no way I would just be able to drink any coffee. Right, right, exactly. Yeah, for sure. so along those lines, Kurt, what are you, are you still, are you just, is this, are you just like bathing in this stuff now or what, what's the, what's the deal? No, I gave, I gave half of it to you. So my supplies greatly diminished, but no, I actually haven't had any yet. Cause I'm still on the, the light bright flavor from rootless in Flint, which I didn't, I didn't bring the bag today, but did you, did you, did you ever have one of those Sterling, the, the, the light brights, like where you put the little pegs in the game, the toy? No, you know, I know what you're talking about. No, we didn't. I can, I can, yeah. I remember it, not at all. So, like, no, like, Kurt, like, shows me this bag, he's at the store, and he's like, and it's Rootless's new, like, light bright, I don't know if it's like a special one off or whatever, and I, I immediately, in my, My, my, like, I was like five years old again, like with like, yeah, with the light break. And I was like, that's the best toy ever. And all of us, there was a, when Star Wars came out, there was a light bright. like, I believe it was made by night, right? It was actually a Star Wars, like, like, what are they, they call it? The, the lightsaber. Yeah, thank you. I was like swore in. I didn't wanna piss any of the Star Wars fans off that might be be watching this because you know how that goes. yeah, it was, it was something that like you would wrote, I think. And maybe I'm missing, it was, you would rub it against the light and then it, like, it would light up. I don't know if that's the same manufacturer or not, but I do remember the light bright toys. Yes. Well, and the, well, I should have brought the, the, the bag, but this, the, this new flavor, I don't think it's a special run. I think it's just a new flavor that they're doing, but, they even found, so, so our, our coffee bag is black because we're architects. You know, black and white, architectural black. Yeah. The, the light bright bag is this nice iridescent blue. Pink purple, material, which probably can't be recycled, but, that's a whole, we can save that conversation for just don't tell Ilya. Yep. But it has a nice, has a nice color way. You know what? I don't know. Well, Sterling probably doesn't know, but we, we talk about this. So rootless is a Flint based roaster and we, we, we like to support our local. Roasters and I've befriended these people and they, you know, they made this special coffee for us and the podcast. But, the other thing they do is that every, every unique flavor that they have, they, they commission artists to draw or design a logo for each bag. And so, so there's a, in our case, we, we came with our own artist in Jamie, but, but so it's kind of nice. They have, they're very, they're very kin, kindred spirit in the process that they do too. So that's really cool. Yeah. So along the lines of kindred spirits, you know, let's, let's get to the art. Art. Art. All right. So how do you want to, well, I'll just, I'll just turn it, turn it on. And then we can, maybe you're the, you're the curator, buddy. I'm the curator today. Well, you know, I guess it is because my mural account, but yeah. Well, so the, the fun part of this today though, is that, so, Jamie had to dig in the crates a little bit for, for a couple of sketches. but only because, Sterling's here and there's some, you know, Jamie's done. At least two sketches of two photographs from sterling and he already gave me permission to place these on my mural. So for all those. copyright people out there. I'm, I'm, I'm conflict free. Oh, let me turn this off for a second. Conflict free photos, yes. but we, you know, we, we kind of, we, well, we took, we did this collaboratively, put these, this grouping of photos together, but the, so the sketches above match to the photos below. They are in two different locations, right? And so one, like, say, starting with the left side, Hey Kurt, Kurt, before you go on, I have to ask Sterling, just because we have a fellow architect and designer here, and, and friend, because, you know, but did you, Sterling, did you like how Kurt had to like adjust those photos about 75? They were in line with everything. Yes. What? Center align. Just teasing you, buddy. Just teasing you. Quick, my. Tweaking the two inches off center, but it was good. It was good. It was a great voiceover. Like, why you did it. You kind of were like, disguising the movement. You're like, don't look behind the curtain. Well, we have 2 hands, right? You know, 1 hands on the mouse, right? And the other ones on the keyboard. I mean. These are the things we're taught, right? Oh, alright. Oh my gosh. I can't, I can't believe I'm getting, now I'm gonna slide this up. I'm self conscious about these, these things now. well I, I, you'll have to remind me, but I, I do remember you said the, the, the pier on the right Yeah, so these are both in North Carolina. So the pier on the right is on the outer or was on the outer banks. it's called the Frisco pier. it was, basically obliterated by a hurricane. I don't remember how many years ago, but they tore it down at least. I want to say maybe right before the pandemic. So, before they, you know, they've been wanting to take this down for quite some time. So I've been meaning to get out there. And so, most of the photos that you'll see of this are not like this. A lot of them are, some of them are astrophotography. So you'll see the Milky Way in the background as the long exposure. So I actually had this general idea that I was going to do something like that, but it was stormy, the, because I, I don't get much time off. And so this was like, right before spring. So I was like, all right, let me head out to the Outer Banks before it gets crowded. I've got some time on my hands. So it was actually really stormy, and so there's no stars to be seen. but it was just kind of this, you know, I felt it really kind of matched the, already kind of storm swept pier. and it was very first thing in the morning. So this was like right after sunrise. So the sun came out a little bit just to kind of get a hint of light and shadow on that pier with the backdrop of the clouds. And so I did, anywhere between a 30 second to one minute exposure to kind of soften off the waves. And then, you know, and so it becomes a little bit more, painterly in that sort of sense, you know, as opposed to just merely kind of photographic. So, oh, that's cool. I didn't actually, I didn't even think about the, the, the length of exposure as a, I don't know. It just didn't cross my mind in, in, in, in both cases, I suppose, with the movement of water, you're going to have more activity, like on the image on the left. Right. So if I had snapped it like normal, you might see much more of the, the actual suds of the, you know, but it was one of those things I used a neutral density exposure. I have what's called like a big stop. Like it, it stops it like a lot. I don't remember exactly how many stops it stops down to, but you know, I thought, you know, when I was there, I was like, I felt like the scene really kind of called for that, exposure. And like, I also think that because that kind of gives this inference to, I guess, passage of time as well. I love the photo just because it has, you know, and I'm. I'm much more interested in black and white photography, always have been just, just enamored, enamored by it. And, and I think maybe even more so, you know, like you said, both of us took the same photography class in college, you know, you clearly, you know, are using it, you know, way better than I've ever done. But, but it's, but I think that the color photography is something that. similar to even kind of color and paint in my own art is that, I love it, but I'm, I'm always apprehensive about, you know, kind of delving into it. you know, this, this, this particular piece that you had, you know, has that painterly quality. Do you, do you find in your art? You know, did you ever find a difference between black and white versus color in the way that you approach it? Yes! Well, everything's intentional, right? So last night I actually, So a lot of the photo clubs locally will kind of invite me to kind of critique their work and things like that. And, you know, one of the things I always kind of mention is really similar to the design process. Everything's intentional. Why did you make this form? Why did you do this? Like the use of color and the use of black and white is an ingredient kind of summer to that, right? So, you know, I will say the tendencies of why I use color is because I find the information. I was gonna say the information informative, but that's what it is, you know? So, for example, you know, there's a photo that I'm donating and it's a fall day. Right? Like it's, it's all these brilliant, like, red, it's a, it's a mill and there's all these brilliant reds and yellows and orange. The color is important. You make that black and white, it is completely dreadful, right? You know, sort of thing. at the, at the same time, color masks, color can often mask, or at least, not necessarily mask, I would say. Divert your attention from the purity of light and shadow and kind of gradation, right? So like, we're looking at the picture on the left. So that picture on the left is often done in color. I've seen that a lot, often done in HDR, like, a very kind of similar view. And one of the things that I think was important for me when I. Worked in. I don't know. Did you have a Larson? Was he your professor for photography? So I had Larson. And so, you know, those, those, like a lot of things he taught, I still kind of use as far as. You know, there's, there's meaning in the, in the depths of the darkness, right? And there's meaning in those highlights, you know, sort of thing. And, you know, for the left sort of picture, especially for something that, I mean, I don't know when this, this, this factory might have been active. I mean, it might have been like the early 1900s or whatever up to like, maybe the mid 1900s. but you know, it was really kind of important to have these kind of deep dark tones in this kind of metal structure. You don't necessarily need to see everything, you know, sort of thing. And so I think a lot of times it's just what you're trying to convey. And I think it's very individual to the photo itself. I don't, when I'm taking photos, personally speaking, I'm never thinking this is going to be black or white or color. I'm just seeing and I'm just shooting, right? As opposed to architectural photography, where I know exactly what this photo is going to look like when I'm taking it, you know, sort of thing. I don't really know until I sit down and I process. I'm like, what did I see today? I have no idea what I saw. And then the pro So when I'm doing, like, my fine art photography, the process of development is a huge part of the actual thinking process. Whereas with architecture photography, I've already thought about all that way, way ahead in advance. So I'm using kind of two different, it's two different processes for me. Yeah. So this is a dumb question. I think it's going to be dumb, but I mean, I assume you're using primarily, well, I'm assuming. Often it would be a digital camera. Yeah, yes. Everything that I use is digital. But, you know, the, the, the principles of film photographer. I mean, it's, I mean, the camera is the same, right? You know, I think the equipment is different. And so I think one of the, the nice thing about being like our, in our age group is that we, I'm sure you've had, had many of these conversations. Between like, you know, y'all picked up the pencil and now we're working with the computer. It's the same thing here, right? Like, I'm still using a lot, like, again, like, a lot of people, like, if you're, I don't know, if you're, like, 12 years old now, you may, you may want to see every single little detail in that, right? You're gonna see, like, this is why they develop things like HDR, because they wanted to see every little highlight and they wanted to see every little shadow, right? And that's not the, not, I mean, you can, if that's. If that's what works for it, but you know, there's a real art to communicating these, these photographs. And so what is it that you're showing? What is it that you're not showing, you know, sort of thing like you can't just do it just to do it. and I think that's one of the things that. I think in design school, if anything that kind of stuck with me is like, yeah, sometimes you just kind of throw things at the wall to see what sticks. But in the end, you're still making very kind of purposeful moves to a certain goal. Yeah, I think, what, what, what, see if I can get this across in the right way, but like an example that I often struggle with. is people want these ultra high def TVs or 4K, 5K, 8K, whatever, bunch of K, bunch of pixels, right? And so the technology exists to like create that stuff. But if you actually stood outside and just looked at what your eyes can can view, I mean, your eyeballs, our eyeballs can't pick up 4K or create a 4K. Image, right? There's fuzz. There's I mean, depending on eyewear contacts. So there's definitely some challenge to that. And so is this about you getting older, Kurt? No, no, no. This is about, kind of like that. Nothing. Not everything has to be 4k. No, you're right. I, you know, I've, you know, Jamie and I, we've talked this, you know, same comparison with music, like with MP3s, like I can literally hear every sound. And it's not as an enriching of an experience than when I listen on record or tape. Like, once I got CDs, they started to kind of cross over. But when you went from CDs to MP3s, there's just something about hearing every little thing that, I don't know, it's just, it's just too much information. And, you know, that's one of the things that architecture school teaches, though. Like, it teaches about, like, what information that you're kind of conveying. You know, and that goes into photography. That goes into renderings. Like, I think that's why sketching is important, right? Because, like, as a, or just any traditional media outside of photography, because photography is unforgiving. You see everything, right? Or, at least if you're shooting at a certain aperture. You can see everything. You can kind of, you know, you can kind of choose what people see or don't see based on your crop or your, or your, depth of field. But, you know, when you're drawing or painting, you're choosing what's important, right? Like, you're looking at Jamie's photographs. He's choosing, he's choosing those shadows, right? And those are the things that he's picking up in the photograph, which I appreciate because, like, that's intentional on my part. So I, I appreciate that he picks up on those shadows. Like, almost every, gosh, almost every line is in those shadows. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's that, it, that's why, I mean, I, I'm glad that we, you know, we kind of came back to wanting to talk about, you know, this compare and contrast because that particular sketch, You know, is one technique that I don't do a whole lot, but I did really deliberately because of your piece and, and what that, you know, black and white photography that you're showing in an artistic way, is really talking about, you know, how'd you describe, I mean, what was the phrase that you used sort of the, the depths, the depths of the shadows? I mean, it was like, yeah. You know, it's not just, you know, it's not just, you know, there's, you know, there's, there's a richness in the blacks. Yeah. You know, and like, we did that in photography class, like, you know, in, in those, in those prints. And, and it's, and it's, it's that, you know, they are at the same time revealing of something that's maybe just out of reach of those eyeballs that Kurt is talking about, you know, with, with that, that digital detail. And, but at the same time, it's sort of evocative of, you know, I think in both. I'm particularly happy with it as a sketch because I think it conveys the same feeling that I get when I went that I get when I look at the photo. and going back to kind of what Kurt was talking about, like, you know, I, you know, the eyeball like we see everything, but like our brain processes what's important, right? And so, you know, going back to the camera being unforgiving. Like, it picks up all sorts of stuff that, like, my eye doesn't necessarily, like, see. But, like, you know, in the development of it, like, my, the way that I personally try to do my art, also my architecture photography as well, like, I, I want to make it look like as you would have perceived it with your eye. which kind of gets into representation of architectural photography again, right? Because like, kind of like, hey, we want to make this look like the rendering. Well, then why do you have the rendering and why do you have the photograph? If they're going to be the identical thing? Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. And I think, well, I mean, there's a whole, a whole lot of like technical questions that I mean, which could be probably boring. You know, if I go into those things, but like, it's, you ask me technical questions all the time about my sketches, like, I'm happy to, I'm curious, like, I love your stuff. Well, the, well, I guess one, you know, one would be, you know, you know, we're, we're viewing this, you know, it's kind of like a screen grabs from your website. To mural to then, restream where we're putting this all together. So there's all these layers of like, sort of maybe bastardization or Xeroxing. Yeah, like, you know, sort of, yeah, pixelation or yes. Sterling, you and I definitely went to school together. Xeroxing. Come on. Mimeogram. Yes. But the, so you mentioned, so for example, I would imagine like, say for a client, architecture. Client, they're primarily going to use that for their website and maybe, maybe some print material that they would, you know, create for a client presentation or something like that. but then your fine art, you have, well, that, that becomes up to you how you choose to. I mean, these are on your website, but then also if you exhibit them, Yeah, and I've exhibited both of them. Yeah, I've exhibited both of these. The one in the bottom right has won a few awards. yeah, so like, when I was in architecture and I thought that's the path I was going to take, I thought I was just going to be a fine art photographer. I had no designs on. Like making this a real, like living because like doing this on your personal time is a huge money suck. I would imagine. Yeah. With printing and Well, and also sort of a, a, a little bit of an adrenaline junkie kind of thing with the one on the, on the left too.'cause you know, for, for those who can't see it, but we'll see it in the show notes and all that. you know, on the podcast, the, the image on the left is this factory, you know, this abandoned factory, and, you know, as many an architect, or architecture student knows, you know, we like to get into buildings, and, yeah, it's sort of the urban explorer, you know, ruin. You know, architecture, all that good stuff. So that, that, this photo has a lot of those qualities. And I think that in kind of capturing it as a sketch was sort of almost feeling the same way about it. There's a, trying to get, you know, the blacks, the shadows, those depths of space to read almost like they have a little bit of energy to them, is also sort of the way I feel about. You know, when I've been in a building like this, I haven't been in this building, but where you're kind of walking around and you're not really sure what's around the corner, or what you're going to find. and you know, in those vistas, like this one has a great, almost one point, vantage. you know, to the sketch as well as to the photo, in which are, I still, I mean, do you find that as from a photography point of view, do you find the one point perspective harder to compose like then where we're. as an architect it can be, especially if things are not constructed in the way that it actually lines up. Ah. Which is very common. Now we're getting into the secret sauce. Yeah. Yeah. The actual built, because like it's one of those things where sometimes I almost wish they would just bring me in for ca so we can just,'cause I can't tell you how many times where I'm just like, Yeah, that light's not on the right wood panel, like it's one, it's one off. If you passed it, you're not going to notice it. But because I'm lining everything up with this other thing that you have, you know, you have this reveal here and we placed the furniture here. Now I can't necessarily shoot it like that. Now I have to shoot it six inches to the right to make it look like it's lined up. You know, sort of thing. So that thing kind of drives me crazy because it takes me forever to line that stuff up. Is it, is it, well, well, back to the technical question. So is it ever been done that you photoshop something into place? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like the difference between like, in all these, in all these, like personal photographs, all these have been processed in like five minutes. Like, it's very, like, I don't do a lot of editing. Like, with architecture photography, it's like all sorts of, it's like marketing photography. Like, there's so much that's just a bold lie. Like, you just just move this H back, you know, remove this door. you just just practical. Sometimes there's a crack and you're like, well, that's not supposed to be there. Or, you know, they put something in the wrong, yeah, just all the practical things of architecture that, that y'all have to deal with. That drives you crazy. Like every single time it, it, it almost happens every single shoot I'm there. The architect's there. And we're setting up the shot and it's just like, yeah, that's not installed the right way. And then either we, either I have to talk them off the ledge because like, it's not as bad as you think from a prototype standpoint, or like, we have to like, Yeah, you're right, man. We gotta like, you gotta come back and do this you know, talk about, sort of thing. So it's, it's a lot different. Oh, well, you know, 1, 1 1 or point a connection back to, to say like the, the lower left photo and the sketch on the left. is that all like, just something Jamie and I talk about a lot? Mostly because Jamie's, a lot of Jamie's sketches kind of take on a sort of dystopian cust or conceptual Perception, right? And so it's not necessarily always something of a real space. It's a, it's a imagined space and they have this sort of dystopian post apocalyptic kind of feel. And so the, the, the sort of I'm much more optimistic than you're painting me right now. But yes, oh, no, it reminds me of like sci fi punk. Yes. Yeah. And yes, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not trying to Make it a, you know, sound like a, you know, a down or anything, but so because we've been talking about how, how much beauty there is in the image that the photo that sterling is taken with, with the richness of the shadows and the blacks, things like that. And so. If captured or portrayed in a certain way. I mean, I think there's a lot of interesting now that we've taken it from sketch all the way to photo. And then, you know, back to the sketch above. It's just interesting that that, you know, I mean, these spaces exist, but then how do you I'm trying not to use the word, you know, like the ruin porn. Phrase that that everybody well, you know, that's actually what I was trying to avoid like so one of them The real backstory between like me and I used to do this as a kid I mean there were cameras back then or digital cameras back then like it was just something like if there was a You know a house that burned down like I would go in three weeks later and like, you know, there was a Empty apartment in a complex. I'd go like Yeah, sorry, mom, dad, if you're looking at this, like, yeah, but I would just used to, used to, I used to do that all the time. And so, like, I was always, like, an observer of, like, my environment and that influenced, you know, me going into architecture. And, you know, you know, we kind of talked about the green room, but, like, you know, a lot, I was always interested. Not only in just the new stuff, but like also the dilapidation or the human destruction or just, you know, the vandalism, you know, of buildings. I love seeing that sort of thing. And like, you know, in architecture school and structures, you know, Most people, we have the book, you know, why buildings stand up, right? You know, sort of thing. But there's a companion book. It's called Why Buildings Fall Down. And I love that book as well, you know, sort of thing. And so, you know, the, the, the interesting thing about having these two different avenues of photography is like, the architecture is the new stuff. It's kind of the birth, right? But like the thesis between, behind like my personal photography is like, you know, so like, and I say this in my artist statement, like, you know, Buildings are, like, I kind of almost, in a sense, humanize. these structures, like there's a real heart to them and they are, they're not permanent. They are, they are born and they live and they die. And so like, you know, I capture them during like all phases of that and that includes their death. You know, sort of thing. And so, you know, capturing these, I always wanted to avoid the ruin porn. And like, you know, there's a kind of a very stereotypical way to kind of present these buildings, you know, and ruin it. I really want to humanize them. Well, and it's just, you know, when, and I think along those lines is that. There's, the, the humanizing of these, these buildings or these, these sort of, you know, places that you're kind of inhabiting, I think there's just, it's just, it's showing the beauty of them. You know, as they are and and and I haven't heard you talk about it that way as you know, as they have come this life cycle, but it really does make a lot of sense. And I think as as a designer of buildings and spaces and places, hopefully we're thinking about those things. you know, I like to maybe capture some of that in a sketchbook, but, as a designer, I think it's important to kind of think about those, you know, and, and I think they, they say that about photographers, you know, anyways, is that they're, you know, and artists in general is that they're kind of capturing the, the reality of the world in which we live, you know, either imagined or not, and, and I, I just, you know, I, I just wanted to thank you again for just, you know, You know, sharing these, these images. I mean, it's not your architecture photography, but I mean, it's, I think it's great to, you know, have them up against the sketches in a way where your work inspired the sketches. and I, I, I love it. And I'm and I'm glad I'm happy to see these again. Yeah. Well, the, oh, I just forgot what I was going to say, but. I think it's, I guess, like the, the, the idea of patina or aging, right? I mean, buildings do, you know, they, they don't look like the rendering as we, we've talked about a couple of times, right? They, you know, a brick, a brick is going to have, you know, the mortar joints and then little smudges and, you know, and then things. you know, add to it a patina overlay on top of that and so on. And and so the, the idea of aging, but, yeah, as Jamie said, I don't I don't want to repeat too much. But, yeah, there's this. It's been it was eye opening to me to kind of understand your perspective on, how you see or or create create this human condition onto these. you know, architectural structures and so, but yeah. So is this the, is this the, is this the ending, Jamie? Is this what I, I, I think, are you giving me the end that I was asking for I, I think, I think this is, you know, Kurt, you know, as Sterling, you know, we joke about on many an episode, maybe too many an episode, but Kurt, Kurt just doesn't like to leave the party. You know, he's just, you know, he's, he's one of those, he is never going to do an Irish goodbye. Like never, like, that's just, it's, that's just not going to happen. So, but it's like, don't you remember when we were in Galveston and I, we closed, closed that one bar. Oh yeah. The three of us. Yeah. And it was like, yeah, like there was, there was no, there was no leaving. Like the bartender's like staring at us going. You guys gonna just keep hanging out. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. This was fun guys. I, I, yeah. You know, hopefully it was, halfway informative. Oh, this was great. No, great. We, I would love to have you back'cause there's so many other, other things that we didn't even talk about ai, but we won't even Oh, gosh. Crack that candy Yeah. But I, like, like I said, I, I, I can talk about anything and everything as, as evidenced by this podcast. So, anytime guys.