118 - The Process is the Product

Kurt: 0:32

Jamie, how are you? Good. Is that, is that loud enough? It's

Jamie: 0:40

loud enough. Can you

Kurt: 0:40

hear me? Oh, yeah. I could see you now too. Had some

Jamie: 0:45

difficult difficulties. You say that. And then, and what's interesting is this is the first time I've noticed this on our live streaming. for those who are listening only as the podcast, we, we do. We do actually, livestream sort of the, the Rock Hut of the podcast both on YouTube and Twitch. and so when we, we do kind of a little bit of a green room lounge, backstage area, before we kind of queue up the, the real intro and dive into the episode, which you're actually listening to right now, but. The first time I've noticed this is when we make that transition from the lounge to the, you know, the intro sequence. and my camera kind of goes off here locally. I notice that in our setup for our studio, it actually calls it the backstage area. So like, it, it, it tells you that you're backstage. and so I just thought that was pretty. Clever and awesome, and yeah, I'm just sharing you too much. I think probably

Kurt: 1:58

technology is working in our favor. Puts, puts, puts you in the backstage. Although as the owner of the account, I don't, I don't see, I don't think I see exactly the same things as you see. Does it black out or does, does it play the intro video? Well,

Jamie: 2:14

I see, I see the intro video. Then I can, but then I have this other camera. And it says the host can see you, you're backstage. And I'm like, oh. So I could be like making like all kinds of gestures at Kurt and whatever. but. I don't do that. Of course. Cuz I only just noticed that that's what that whole area

Kurt: 2:35

was. So that's funny. Can you see me in the little, do you have a little small? No, I'm

Jamie: 2:41

backstage and you're the host,

Kurt: 2:43

so, oh, I see. I have all these little windows. So I have, I have a small window of you. I have a small window. People in the green

Jamie: 2:52

room. Is that what you're saying? Do you have other guests in the green room that you're not telling me

Kurt: 2:56

about? Yeah. You know, just in case things go south, it's You're like, Jamie,

Jamie: 3:02

I brought you here today to tell you

Kurt: 3:06

we talk about sports, right? What's, what's this video? On the video? You see this gesture right here? right? Yeah. Bring in the righty. Go to the bullpen. Yeah. Not quite. I love using that little signal, you know, cuz if you know, you know,

Jamie: 3:26

That's, that's a, that is such a deep cut on our, on our podcast.

Kurt: 3:32

We're gonna use that. That's gonna be a great little, little clip. Yeah. In our, in our experimental social media. If you had told

Jamie: 3:40

me I would've gone and like got the exposed ball cap and been wearing it today, and that would've been like, I'll just like take it off and just throw it and Kick dirt.

Kurt: 3:52

Yeah, kick dirt. The Well, I, I, you know, I mean, not to talk a lot about sports, cuz I, I, I don't get enough time to watch a ton. But they did change some rules in baseball. Yes. That has drastically sped the game up and made it more exciting. Right. More scoring. They made the bases larger. They, they put a clock on the pitcher. And did they change the ball, the baseball wind?

Jamie: 4:23

That I don't know. I knew about the other two. Yeah. I mean, maybe they didn't. I'm going like, I have not watched any, I have not been to any games. I haven't been to a baseball game in quite a while actually. Well,

Kurt: 4:34

the expos don't exist anymore, so, you know, I know

Jamie: 4:37

they don't exist but we've talked about that, that, you know, baseball is like, you know, is also near and dear to my, My Crowley family heart. but yeah, no, I'm actually gonna go to a game, in San Francisco. So, which I've been to games in San Francisco when I was a little kid. at, at the old Candlestick. At the old Candlestick. as well as the old Oakland A stadium. Oh,

Kurt: 5:01

oh yeah, yeah.

Jamie: 5:04

And, been to both Ranger stadiums, And not the newest one, but, and then been to the old Atlanta Braves stadium, Baltimore. so been to Camden Yards. seen games in, I don't know if I know, I'd never seen a game in Toronto. Montreal Bunch, of course. So the,

Kurt: 5:32

that's it, Montreal, or was it Toronto's stadium that had the. The,

Jamie: 5:41

the retractable, that's the Olympic stadium in Montreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the umbrella.

Kurt: 5:46

Yeah. It was quite a, yeah, that's right. Remember? Yeah, I remember the, it was one of the earliest of those kinds of, opening closing roof cover devices. So yeah. The

Jamie: 5:58

big O

Kurt: 5:59

Yep, that's right. The Big O. The Yeah. So yeah, it's kind of fun to go to a, a, a, go to a town and go to Stadium. I've done a little bit of that. My brothers,

Jamie: 6:10

I've been to, I've seen the Nationals play, who basically are the Montreal, so full circle. Yeah. hopefully I've proven my worth. You're not going to the bullpen, and

Kurt: 6:23

you stay we'll keep them in another inning, you know? Yeah.

Jamie: 6:26

You can just tell the people in the green room, you know, just, just, just, it's okay. There's snacks, maybe some coffee.

Kurt: 6:33

Coffee's good. Speaking of coffee, what is in the mug today?

Jamie: 6:41

So I have gone back to, a I, well, I found it and it was sort of like a, like a, a comfort vibe. they had the, the maple pecan Oh. At the store, of Starbucks. And so, you know, it sort of had, had gone up. I'd kind of gone up, ratcheted up the levels of, my coffee sommelier experience, and then now I've come back. To kind of the, not back in a bad way, but kind of come back to the, like, let's go back to a, an old comfort standard. so it's good. Yeah. And well, and it was a bigger bag. It's gonna be one that's gonna be just gonna like hanging around for a little while. Yep. Yeah.

Kurt: 7:24

Yeah, no, I, I agree. You know, we, we, drink, we drink the coffee. We don't just talk about it, you know, so, sometimes having a, a full pound bag is, is, is comforting. You're not gonna run out Right,

Jamie: 7:38

right. So what about yourself? What's the coffee?

Kurt: 7:41

I, I guess I'll, I'll begin the ratchet of, climbing the, the rootless ladder. And, I think I, I think I've grabbed one that I don't think I've bought before, but I probably have had from the coffee shop that, that ro or not roast, but serves. Rootless coffee, it's called out of your Element and it has artwork, which I should have, should grabbed, haven't talked about one. Yeah, I don't think so. But it's been around for a little bit. It's, if you're familiar with, now I can't remember the, the, the, the stinking movie. What's the movie? You're out of your element, Donny. With John Goodman. John Totoro, the bowling movie. What's the bowling movie? Oh's. Leki. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it is Lebowski, right? Where it's all Yeah, it's all the, yeah. Anyway, so the artwork is, is is like a John Goodman bowling ball. Got this thing, so it's kind of like a light medium roast with, some citrus and sugar, sugar notes. And, it's pretty good. It's, it, it's actually. you know, maybe, maybe gives, damn fine cup of coffee a run for your money. Ooh,

Jamie: 8:59

ooh, that's, that's almost blasphemous. yeah.

Kurt: 9:03

I, I'll try to, try to keep it, keep it, keep it on a DL

Jamie: 9:08

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and, and I hopefully, like when I, I mentioned to you this week that, or was it last week? It was offline, it was an offline conversation. But I mentioned that there's a David Lynch film festival, like a retrospective of all his work in Dallas, at a historic theater, mind you. but yeah,

Kurt: 9:32

it's not, not the historic theater, not

Jamie: 9:35

the, no, not, no, it's not that one. but, yeah, no, it's, so anyhow, yeah, that was, When you said the Dine Cup coffee, I'm gonna go and see fire with me in the theater.

Kurt: 9:50

Oh yeah. Lucky.

Jamie: 9:53

Yeah, it's gonna be fun. I mean, I did see it in the theater when it did come out originally, but I have not seen it in the theater since. So.

Kurt: 10:02

Oh yeah, that's, well that sounds exciting. I think I told you in the way in the, about a year ago, there was, the local art gallery here had a, a piece. Yes. Yeah. And I sent you a picture of it, I think. Yeah. So, you know, that's our, that's, we won't get a fire, fire walk with me, but, we'll, we've got a, we had a, Lynch in some private collection show up. So so that sounds exciting. And so, you know, I, I, I didn't, it's, well, part, partly it is my fault that I haven't yet caught up all the way. And, and so now I don't know if. twin Peaks is on Netflix at the moment. I waited too long. No, and the movie is not on. I, I'll have to find out when they may put it back, which may ne may be never, I don't know,

Jamie: 11:00

your local video store. What tracking down, so Oh, wait, right? Yes. Yeah.

Kurt: 11:09

Where, where is the local video store? That's,

Jamie: 11:12

there's probably like one, like, like blockbuster on like life support in like the up and

Kurt: 11:24

that. That would be cool. I, it could be. Could be just,

Jamie: 11:28

just saying just.

Kurt: 11:31

Well, should we, you want to, well jump into the sketch. Well, yeah. I was there some So the only thing I was gonna say, sorry, it's gonna cut. Off. But the, the sketch, talk about a couple of sketches. It's, it's kind of in the theme of, we just got through the semester, Jamie and I were talking about our, my students, but students in general and the process, and it kind of, in a text message, I said to Jamie that there's a, sometimes I, it's an interesting. A strange anxiety that I pick up from the students, especially as the semester comes to the end and they need to wrap up their work that they only want to show like the most polished, finished drawing rendering. you know, anything as far as a piece of, you know, output, you know, re required deliverable, you know, a drawing, a model, even, even their physical models. And I feel like it's, it's a sort of a, what's the word? Like a stigma from, or a, a side effect of like Instagram and, and social media that showcases things so well. They seem perfect. Right. But you know, there is definitely a lot of talk about like filters and especially with people's photos, right? That you

Jamie: 13:09

definitely, it's it's reality. I mean that's, you know, and that's not. you know, any one person. That's every person. but yeah, and I think that, you know, as you're sort of describing it, I just was at a and m, for an advisory council meeting and, you know, it's sort of the same thing, you know, you know, their students there are wrapping up their semester, you know, m is wrapping up her semester. and you know, so it it's that time of year where everybody's. You know, anxiety levels. I think anxiety is the way you described it, is, is the perfect word, to describe this time. I mean, and even when you and I were students, you know, it was, it that's, that's not any different. or even, you know, as professionals, you know, with a deadline, you know, there's that imposter syndrome where you're like, you know, questioning all of your own work. and, you know, is it, is it good enough? but I think what you and I were talking about is exactly sort of the, the, the more important crux of the matter. And it's one that you and I, you know, really try and highlight and share. You know, our own personal experience here on the podcast is that, you know, the, the end product sometimes is the process itself. and it's not just a sales pitch, you know, ability that architects and designers have. It's that, you know, we're, we are trained not to create perfect Instagram images. you know, we're trained to think critically. You know, we are trained to problem solve, and sometimes there is more than one answer to the problem. And, and even when you get to the answer, you hopefully are still evaluating that answer. and I think that that's, you know, you know, in, in talking to your students, you know, just this past week, I mean, that was, that was really evident, you know, and in, and in, in some of their cases, you know, more evident than others. Some students, you know, don't get as far in their, their projects as they'd probably like to, or how much they as aspire to. That doesn't mean that the project's bad, it just, you know, it's, it's still a process. They can still learn a lot from it. And if, if the, the jurors or the critics or the whomever are there, you know, hopefully we're, you know, we're listening critically to where they are and the questions that they're asking about their projects, so that we can have a conversation about that. You know, cuz at that, at that point you're meeting somebody where they are in their process mm-hmm. and so yeah, I, I think that that's the, it's, you know, it maybe it's, it's maybe two different, you know, layers of conversation, but I think they're both pretty related. For sure.

Kurt: 16:09

Yeah, and I, I, I try as much as I can to like, tell my students, bring the process. They, they, they tend to like forget everything and they leave it on their desk and they only bring the finished things. I'm like, bring that process to, to the, to the crit. You don't need to, you don't need to, talk about every single thing, a model or a sketch or something. But you can have it there and the jury can pick up on it or, or not if they, you know, but they can at least observe what, what is, kind of in the room and part of the, part of the process. Well, I mean,

Jamie: 16:49

so even in that, there's a curation process too, right? You know, the, you know, the sketch or the early render, or the study model or the BIM model or the whatever. that was, you know, a couple weeks ago, there might have been a really, really neat idea in there. You know, you might have thrown away all the other ideas, but there might have been a really neat idea in there. And so having that even just as a touchstone while you're presenting the work, even if, even if it's not really a topic of conversation or something that you actually even referenced, but it's there. that's, you know, it's comforting. I mean, I, I, I recall, you know, many times, even when I was teaching, you know, in kind of various forms, you know, and some students got it and kind of understood it. They were reluctant. They, they didn't kind of buy it. They're like, all is this guy really telling me to bring my, you know, my crappy study models and my crappy drawings that. You know, I that weren't finished and weren't complete ideas. but oftentimes those ended up becoming something that, you know, became part of the conversation. you know, in inevitably you're looking at a f, you know, a finished image and a finished a more finished idea, and then referencing something that you see in that earlier thing. and saying, oh, I get it. I see the through line. You know, I, I see how you've manipulated. I see how you worked the idea to get to this point. That's, that's the energy and the skillset that I think, you know, students are developing when they're in design school.

Kurt: 18:31

Yeah, the I think you put it just a minute ago, you said the process is the product. Yeah. And and I think, here, let me turn this, these sketches on. There's one other thing I was gonna say before we dig into the sketch that you have, cuz it is about the process, but Sometimes for me, and I don't, I'm not sure if it's me being overly concerned about like this sort of Instagram tendency, but sometimes I'd rather see like something. Messy in, like if they've built a physical model that has a little bit of glue or has like, you know, rough edge here and there cuz they do spend so much time like, and then there's so much, there's so many tools like scap, you know, scape and twin motion and you know, rendering. Tools that, I mean, that's a whole other tangent of like when I was your age,

Jamie: 19:34

Well, it's funny you say, it's funny you say that I was talking to somebody in the office and They were describing some things that they were, they were actually, you know, we were sort of self critiquing, you know, a couple different projects, you know, and, and a bunch of stuff was on the table. and somebody was suggesting, to dodge in Photoshop. a couple things and, and then burn a couple areas over here, and it just, it, it struck me as this person was describing it, that they themselves had never, ever dodged and burned a photo in like, in real life. In the lab. In the lab, like with chemicals that, you know, if you ingest too many or you know, there's probably some brain cells that have been killed.

Kurt: 20:28

yeah. Right. Yeah. The Dark Room. Oh my God. Well, yeah, and, and, and Funny Anyway, and the other thing is that there's probably faculty that like want to see that sort of Instagram style image. Right. But I still, I still feel I can connect more when there's a little, when it's. The polish isn't quite there cuz I can almost use as my, I had a teacher say, you know, use your mind's eye and fill in and you know, sort of fill in the blanks and things like that. So, So anyway, so, we'll, you know, I, I probably more of that will come out in these sketches, but the, you know, as, as a, as a, maybe we can make a little timestamp here for students, and I can clip this out and say, here's a, a, a couple of drawings from Jamie, an existing photo of an existing. aging building and then some, you know, research, on that building, which we do use the Sandborn maps in, in one of the classes. So there, that's not unfamiliar. So there's a drawing here of, what we call the Sandborn Maps, which are the Sandborn Insurance Company, right? Fire insurance. Yep. did a survey of all built, Property so that you can have an assessment of what was there in case of a fire. And they were,

Jamie: 21:57

they were, you know, beautiful hand drawn. Map. Yeah. Of, of downtown areas and two scale. Yeah. Two scale. And they would, and they would do them periodically. So you would get sort of like the 1901 version and then the 1911 version, you know, of the same location. they were often color coded, and, and then had some kind of other, you know, codings on them. not codings, but codings. On them enunciate Jamie. and in to kind of help you better understand what that built object was and how it was changing, you know, so, you know, you know, they were looking at it from a fire insurance kind of standpoint, but today, you know, we used them historically to kind of get a, you know, snapshots of these locations. Mm-hmm. and if the building's still there and has been altered over time. You know, the coupling, you know, the photos we see, the historic photos we might have, and the maps. You really can really start to tell a really more complete sort of detective work story of this place. and then, and then make decisions. You know, I mean, that's, that's really what we're, you know, kinda coming back to is, you know, kind of making decisions design-wise, preservation wise, or you know, or other. Yeah. Yeah, the sand

Kurt: 23:21

horns are a lot of fun that way. And, and I agree that those evolution over time can be, can be witnessed or, or observed in, in these various maps. and so anyway, so, you know, you sent me a couple of these and I composed them into this nice, beautiful collage, but you know, to the left right is our, our more. familiar Instagram Square sketch from Jamie Black and White of this building in the lower right. and then in the middle, which something we probably haven't talked about a technique of Jamie's, very much at all on the podcast. So this might be a first or a second of, of this sort of technique, but you know, Given, I mean, all, what I'll say about it as far as process and, and then I'm sure you're, you'll have even more to, to, to fill us in on. But you know, we have the existing building in a photograph. We have a sketch to generate the ideas, and then we have this in color, a more polished sketch, which is, is, is still not yet a finished building or a rendering for a finished building, but it, it sort of furthers the idea from the sketch as far as. Some of the elements, like I can see your, you know, focal point on the corner, which this building kind of turns the corner. So how do you reengage the sidewalk, the street life, and then, you know, in this case, straightening the lines a little bit and giving. A little more texture to the ornament and brick detail stuff of the building, but it doesn't give you everything, right? Like you haven't rendered everything to the nth degree. There's a little bit of what we call entourage, which is people and benches and furniture at the street level, plant life, sky, things like that. but it's not, it's still kind of a sketch, but I think you'll tell us that it's not just a sketch. Right.

Jamie: 25:31

Which is the neat part. Yeah. So it, you know what it is. is it like exactly what you're, you know, describing to a certain degree is most, if not all of my projects begin with a coffee sketch. and, and so that, you know, the one that Kurt said, the familiar black and white, you know, off to the left is. You know, it is really me trying to get acquainted with this building, and in my mind and getting my head kind of wrapped around it, knowing that I'm gonna work on it and trying to imagine, you know, aspects of it that I, I immediately see and, you know, confirming some things about. You know, where the final product might end up landing and making some, making some design decisions, you know, you know, realizing that I'm probably gonna come back and change them. but, you know, that's where that sketch starts. And, but the image on the right that Kurt was, you know, aptly describing as, you know, the, the process is the product. I think this is really indicative of that. it is a Photoshop render, utilizing, a different photo of this particular property, rectifying the perspective. Cropping out certain elements. you know, working back to the composition that I had sort of planned in my mind and through some sketches, not just the one, not just the coffee sketch, but there's iterations of other sketches, oftentimes on a trace paper where I'm just sort of planning out what I'm doing, kind of making mental notes to myself often in that, in, at that point, you know, we didn't. Pull one in for this, for this episode. But often that point, I'm just sort of making notes to myself. I'm writing the words down of the things that I'm seeing. I might not draw them all, but I might say, you know, this building needs a sign, you know, the sign's gonna go here. You know, and then, and then sometimes I'll even ask myself questions. Should the sign wrap, should the sign be illuminated? Should the sign be metal? You know, and it's just sort of, you know, and I'll list them off, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like almost bullet points. I'm not making any judgements or questions, you know, it's more, I'm making questions, I'm not making judgements at that point. and I'm giving myself time to think about it, but I'm trying to enumerate the ideas. you know, for myself, just part of my process, something that I've developed over time. but, you know, those sketches then inform the work that I'm doing at Photoshop. and so using Adobe, and modifying different layers of this image, and then finding, you know, sort of from closer up images, what the actual brick pattern. You know, is underneath it. and so trying to pull some of that through sort of as a theme, and sort of an, an artistic render of, of that reality. So kind of layering in that image, you know, doing a lot of dodging, burning, cutting, cropping, of pieces and parts. adding in windows that are, again, more appropriate. If you look down at the, the image to the bottom, if you can pan there really quick, Kurt, of the existing, you can see that there's actually no windows in this building, currently. So, you know, this building has been abandoned for, for decades. buildings over a hundred years old. you know, was a department store. and was, originally like a two-story building. the two-story building elements of it were retained, and then a larger building was built. You know, in its place or added onto. And so that's, that's where we, we arrive at this particular property. And that's pretty, pretty common across the us, of, of how buildings kind of get modified over time. But as you can see in the photo, there's no windows in this. so all we're relying on is, Some of the interior photos, we were actually able to find some of the windows. so knowing what the proportions of the frames were, and, and that the, they did change from front to back slightly. so tried to pick up ways to render that in Photoshop. So created some elements, duplicated those elements, you know, modified them for the actual perspective itself. Played with some color, but treated it almost like a Mac painting at that point. the sky, same thing. Brought in sort of a Mac painting of the sky, then altered it because I wanted it to, to be more akin to the, the sketch itself, as it was developing a Photoshop. Same thing with the storefront level at the bottom, kind of modifying it canopy, Ty Rodd canopy was in place but is damaged. So had to do some cleanup on it. but here's the part of the process that Kirk and I were talking about. Reason, reason why we wanted to highlight it today was there came a point where this image that you're seeing in the upper right was about 70% there. You know, and that's just sort of picking a number at that point. Printed it off quite large. So that I could actually draw on top of the image, some of the elements on the bottom. the storefront area was, there was a level of detail, that I really wanted to achieve with certain things. And, and, and to Kurt's original introduction to this also wanted it to feel like a sketch. even though a lot of it was originating in Photoshop. You know, from an original photograph, with Photoshop elements and textures and things like that, I didn't want it to feel, just Photoshop or just cartoony. and so I, I wanted the texture, I wanted the grit, that I, that I get from the type of sketching that I, that I typically do. I wanted to introduce that to the image cause I felt that it would really ground. This sort of active, new active retail space that I was sort of envisioning for the building. that's not where this project finishes or the image that you're seeing finishes. I, at that point, scanned the image and then brought it back into Photoshop, layered that scan over the top of the original. Photoshop, you know, so it just became another layer in there and matched everything up that I needed to match up so that I still had, you know, a fair amount of resolution over the image itself. And then was able to manipulate the entourage even further, with some more photo elements. and then change those photo elements to appear more sketch like. Akin to my drawing. so that the, that it, it almost becomes indecipherable, you know, which parts I'm drawing and which parts I'm pulling from an entourage library that we're creating. and, and at that point, there just sort of hits a point where you just have to kind of say, I'm gonna put a pin in it. You know, this is, this is where it's gonna be for right now. you're getting the point across that there's some Italian eight details on this multi-story brick building. but it's re been revitalized and you can imagine, you know, loft living above a retail space. so, that's, that's how this sort of drawing becomes what Kurt and I refer to more as hybrid sketching.

Kurt: 33:19

Yeah. And that, that it's, I'm glad you walked through the process cuz I don't think we have had, we, if we've ever had this, a version of this kind of sketch before, probably only one other time. And so it's kind of nice to hear I mean, it's pretty laborious, sort of returning circular, sort of iterative process going back and forth between hand and Photoshop and, and layering the, the effects over top of it. But I mean, I think. you know, that, that, just, you know, proves that there, there need, you can't just sort of push print or push done, you know, one time, right? There's always a little bit of editing and tweaking and things like that, that have to,

Jamie: 34:06

you know, and, and there might be somebody, you know, who kind of looks at this and says, you know, well, why didn't you just do it like on more Folio Trace or something like that. and, and I think that's just because I, I'm, I'm not, I don't feel the same level of skill with that yet. but for those, you know, and Kurt likes to tease me about it, you know, it's, you know, all that stuff's just technology. All that's just a, just a new pen to me. so. You know, don't think that I'm not already trying it. It's just maybe you haven't seen it yet. So Oh, oh,

Kurt: 34:44

that sounds like a hint. But the, yeah, you know, I, that's actually brings up really good point as well, that the last sort of bit of, that we talk about with students a lot is, is, It's still just a tool, right? No matter any piece of software, any pen, you know, analog versus digital, all those things are still tools and it's all about using your own creativity and, and, and. Process really, cuz it not very few people can take a pen and, you know, produce, a beautiful image right away. Right. So it's about sort of the practice and the process, of that practice in order to, To, to use the tools that you have, just as Jim Hill's alluding to, it's like maybe he is experimenting with some digital sketching tools, but, yeah. It, and, and so, but e even in the meantime, you know, the, the hand drawing plus some Photoshop, which Photoshop is a, a super powerful. you know, pixel pushing, image, image, edit, editing software. and, the, you know, it's kind of funny. I've, I haven't used it in much since I, it lately, but I have tinkered with it. But then I talk to the students and there there's like tools in Photoshop now that didn't exist when I was there, a when I was a student. But anyway, that's, We won't go down that road.

Jamie: 36:19

So.

Kurt: 36:21

Well, thanks Jamie for the, the, the tutorial. I hope we're, we can, I, we'll clip this out. I'm gonna share it with my students.

Jamie: 36:28

Yeah, no, well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm glad that you wanted to talk about this one, or at least the topic and then, that this sort of dovetailed, you know, you know really well to it because I think it's, it's one where, The process can be a little bit messy. and, and this is, you know, in, in this particular case, you know, as much as it, it, it all feels and appears to be all kind of coming through me, you know, there, there is still some collaboration with my team. you know, on, on, on these types of projects. But at the same time, you know, I'm, I'm working from a, a perspective as an architect where I've not necessarily worked in really, really large firms or large teams. so, we were kind of having this discussion, interestingly with some of your students, kind of at the end of, of their review. and someone was sort of asking, you know, from a comprehensive design point of view, like, you know, the, their building, you know, admittedly, you know, and, you know, was pretty big. and, and, you know, in intentionally complex, you know, to really kind of challenge them. And, and I, you know, I got all that and they probably got all that too. But, you know, someone had kind of asked the question like, you know, is this kind of real world? You know, like, what. How many folks would be on this kind of a team, and you know, and I think it, it's again, you know, kind of how you practice. you know, there are certain firms that, yeah, that would be a fairly sizable team and they'd have a, a very particular workflow, and you get a, you'd get a very interesting product. But then you'd also have, you know, you have some, you know, for lack of a better word, like, you know, gritty, small, medium sized firms where, you know, they've. Hand this to two or three people and say, go. And, you know, they'd have consultants and things like that too. But, you know, that's, that's another reality. And so I think for me it's more about, you know, kind of knowing who you are, how you wanna work, and who you wanna work with, and, and finding the right place to do those things and, and. Feel supported in it, you know, feeling that it's a really, you know, conducive to who you are and, and what your goals are and, you know, and, and life and all those things. Like, it, it's, there isn't just one way. and, and I think that that, that part of it for us as we talk about the sketches on the podcast is if there was one takeaway, that I hope folks get is that there's not just one way to do it. and anybody who tells you that is lying, It's just, they're just lying. yep. And, and for, for me, I, I feel, you know, I was talking to, you know, my first design professor, you know, this past week and I was joking with him. I said, you know, there's days that I still have imposter syndrome for myself. And I actually shared with him this particular project. and, and the sketches and sort of what I was doing and how I was approaching it, and he just was like, these guys, like, I hope you don't ever feel that way. You know, because you're, because the, he's like, always remember to trust your instincts, you know? I mean, you might not like your end result. And I kind of, you know, he didn't say much more than that, but it's like, it, it, it kind of hit me, is like, yeah. you know, it realize that, you know, whether you're, you know, one year outta school or still in school or 20 years outta school, at some point you have to trust yourself a bit. give yourself a grace. and you know, it's not always gonna be perfect. And, and so for me, part of that is there's a frustration when it's, it's taking longer than I want it to. right. but this, if the process is also the product, you know, these sketches are, you know, indicative of that. And, and hopefully communicative for folks who need to imagine a possibility for their building, helps me have the conversation with them for sure. you know, and, and no one sketch is gonna turn something from. Derelict building into, you know, livable reality. It, it's a, it's a whole lot more complicated than that. And, and I'm not trying to oversimplify it, but sometimes the sketch is, you know, and the process of the sketch, the conversation starter of that sketch gets it going. And, and there's a lot of value in that, that a lot of folks, Really minimize, and I don't think that they should. And, and I think students for where they are in their careers and young professionals shouldn't minimize the thoughts and intuitions that they have about design. and that, and that's a, you know, that's the thing I'm really, really passionate about is that, you know, it's not my idea. You know, that's the only way to approach it. There's lots of ideas about how to approach it. and that's why you and I always are referencing other architects and designers and artists and places and projects that inspire us. Because they do, you know, and they inspire us in different ways. sorry, I, I've totally gone on my own little soapbox tangent here. And you've been like, super patient, like

Kurt: 42:05

nodding your head and you're like, Yeah. No, no, you're, no, it's all good. You're, it, it's right on. And it's not a, not a, not, not even close to a rant, but the, yeah, I, I mean, I, I think I just, one only thing I would add is, You know, when I talk to my students, and when I say students, I mean really, it also then becomes clients and consultants and, and the team that you work with. But is, you can't, you can't show nothing. Right? You can't talk about nothing. Like if you have something in a, in some form, it can make that conversation, as you were saying. So, That, yeah, don't, don't feel the need to, to something is not quite ready, you know, it's ready when it's time to talk about So yeah, we, we could definitely, you know, turn this into a, a whole series on its own, I think just cuz of the, the. The value and well, the value of information, the experience, you know, all those things and all the pitfalls that we've already been through and, and try and teach people to, to avoid But yeah, the, I guess if we were to like kind of end on, on the idea, I really like the idea of like trusting instinct and intuition. You know, there's only so much. Technical capacity that you can absorb in school, and then the rest has to kind of come from, from inside. And so, like I said, we can go on and on and, and Boby won't. And I also, I'll just say thanks Jamie and, We got some exciting sketches for the next one. And so if for all those listening or watching, stay tuned. And I'm, I'm, I'm gonna stay tuned cuz I wanna find out about this, experimentation from Jamie that's going on, but

Jamie: 44:00

we'll for the lounge. Yeah.

Kurt: 44:02

Yes, that's right. I will wait, just alongside everybody else for that one. So see you later.