117 - Special Guest Evelyn Lee FAIA

Kurt: 0:33

Hey, Jamie. How's it? And

Jamie: 0:37

I'm doing good, but we also have an extra guest, Kurt,

Kurt: 0:40

so well, yeah. Gimme

Evelyn: 0:42

a second here. Thank you. I wanna know how old that last picture in the

Kurt: 0:49

it is. When was that? That was, uh, 2018.

Jamie: 0:52

18. Yeah. Yeah. 2018. I know. Yeah. So that's 20. Yeah. So that was New York and um, and we included it. It's sort of like our own little, like Easter egg of, that's the conference we both decided we were gonna do this. Oh yeah.

Kurt: 1:15

Yeah. So we, the, the inspiration struck us at some late hour

Jamie: 1:22

in New York.

Kurt: 1:24

Um, and yeah. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good, a good memory, good, good memory to

Evelyn: 1:32

have. So, but you guys go back much further than

Jamie: 1:34

2018. Mm-hmm. I mean, we do, yeah, but, but not the podcast. Yeah. No. Yeah. Okay.

Evelyn: 1:41

Yeah, we met, I was trying to remember the first time I met

Kurt: 1:43

you all is the Young Architect's forum. Our, our time on the forum. And let's see, I think I. I was on a year before Jamie got on, which was, so I was like 13 and then Jamie was 14 I think. And then Evelyn, when were you chair, do you somewhere

Jamie: 2:08

in there? You're, um,

Evelyn: 2:12

I wanna say 20

Jamie: 2:14

17, 20

Kurt: 2:16

18? Yeah. Cause I did two terms. Mm-hmm. so that got me a little extra time on,

Evelyn: 2:22

on the committee. And then I was a, I was a communications director before I was chair.

Jamie: 2:27

Oh yeah. Yeah. So, you know, because we, we do all the formalities really proper on the show. Um, mm-hmm. uh,

Evelyn: 2:38

sorry, I

Jamie: 2:39

did jump in though, so No, no, you jumped in. You're, you're an old friend, so you're totally allowed to do that, and it's like, it's clear everybody's got some drinks in hand. So, Evelyn, would you like to introduce yourself briefly as well as the coffee that you may or may not be drinking?

Evelyn: 2:54

Oh, good thing you said May or may not Um, I'm Evelyn Lee. I am, I, I work at Slack Technologies. I have my own podcast that has not been running as long as coffee sketch called Practice Disrupted that launched in. 2020. June of 2020, and now I'm not gonna know how to pronounce this, but it's roasted matcha, so it's like ho hoja ho hoja. Oh,

Jamie: 3:24

I'm not gonna be No, no, it's okay. Like we, it's okay pronunciations. We, we make fun of it all the time on the podcast. Kurt constantly corrects me.

Evelyn: 3:32

Um, it's like, it's h o j something. and I'm coming off of being sick, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna blame, blame frog brain frog right now. But, um, but it's not tea. It's, it's roasted matcha. And the interesting thing about the roasting process is it actually eliminates the caffeine, but you still get to, it keeps all the qual the qualities of matcha.

Jamie: 3:53

Oh yeah. I'm, I'm kind of learning a little bit about it, or I'm cur, I'm like curious because. like Argentinian football players, like they love the matcha and like, and varying degrees of different caffeinated and non-caffeinated beverages. So I have been learning new terms of late and so, um, a lot of them have it like in a very specific cup with a, I don't know, I'm Oh sure. I have not tried it, clearly not, cuz otherwise I'd be more intelligent about it. But, Yeah.

Kurt: 4:32

And apparently only I get Humiras for not drinking coffee.

Jamie: 4:37

Oh,

Evelyn: 4:38

no. So I,

Jamie: 4:39

no, no, no. You're no, no. Today. Today he's, yeah.

Kurt: 4:42

But one. Jamie picks on, but I, I have coffee cuz otherwise yes, I'd be teased beyond belief, but

Jamie: 4:50

No, no, no. I'm, do you know what you tease about the, I tease about the decaf, like, like there's not a reason to buy decaf. Like if, if we're gonna buy a coffee, like we're gonna buy coffee. Like if we're gonna get something different, then we're gonna get something different and that's okay. Cause that's a new thing. Yeah. You can tell Dee about that.

Evelyn: 5:09

Although is it like that whole um, that whole whipped coffee thing, isn't it like decaf instant, like it has to be decaf instant or something. Do you guys know what I'm talking about With the whipped coffee with a, anyways, it's like a Korean, the longe coffee anyway. Oh, I. I'm sorry. That sounds,

Jamie: 5:34

that sounds fun. That does sound, yeah,

Kurt: 5:38

we around here in Flint. Yeah,

Jamie: 5:40

there's like a, we have some thing that we're about to like, try and do just so that we sound more intelligent about coffee, but, and I keep interrupting. We've already got, cause it's fun. Like it's, it's partly because of the screen thing. I feel like I can, I. Thank you on either side. Yeah. Alright, buddy. What, what, what's, what's the coffee? I saw you grinding it before we got on,

Kurt: 6:04

so Yeah, we've, we've, uh, it's kind of funny. Yeah. The, the technology, we've been experimenting with new things this season and, uh, So far, we've only had the two of us on, now we have three people, and so the screen is now, the real estate is definitely constrained, and now jv, Jamie's playing the, the, the little devil in between. But uh, well, I, I, I actually, so a couple episodes ago we, I was drinking some Starbucks Italian roast, which is a very dark roast, and then, And then I, I, I said I should, I should test this against, there's a local roaster here, rootless Coffee in Flint, and they have a, a flavor or a profile they call dark, which is their dark roast, and it's got a raven. It's, well, it. You know, we're gotta catch Evelyn up with, you know, uh, I've done some work actually for the rootless guys, you know, designing, uh, uh, some space for their roast. And there's a room,

Jamie: 7:07

there's a rumor that we might get our own coffee bag and brand oh, oh and blend.

Evelyn: 7:14

Well, then you better, you better kind of. You need to, you need to learn how to sell it a little bit better. Kurt?

Jamie: 7:20

Yes.

Kurt: 7:21

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, I, I mean, it doesn't, you know, I talk about their stuff all the time. Yeah, So their dark is better than the Starbucks Italian roast by far. and uh, yeah. So that's what I've got going on today. And it's definitely not de caffeinated, I could tell you that much. And so, uh, how about you, Jamie

Jamie: 7:47

No. Well, since I knew that you were gonna get the, I was hoping you'd get the rootless dark. Um, but, so I went ahead and got the grackle. from Little City. Mm-hmm. So Little City is the Austin roaster that it's sort of like my go-to local. Um, there are a bunch of good local roasters, but they're great. Um, and the Grackle is sort of emblematic of like the city of Austin and it's like weird little raven looking birds. Um, so. Yeah, it's a, it's a dark roast as well, but it has more of a c leaf flavor to it. Um, and it, and there's, I, I didn't, I couldn't put my finger on it, and I finally read it on the bag so I could like, what's that other thing I'm tasting? It's almonds. So they have sort of a, it's a, it's more of like a chocolate and almond kind of flavor. Um,

Evelyn: 8:35

So it's nice. So they roast the almonds with the coffee beans? Well, no. It, it's just, or is it a,

Jamie: 8:41

it's just sort of That's the note from, from where they're getting, okay. Yeah. Oh, from wherever it's grown. Mm-hmm. and they're, they're pretty good about sourcing their, their, um, their beans. Um, but the grackle is kind of their, um, they've grown into a bigger, bigger kind of operation, but the grackle is sort of their, their mainstay, um, original one of choice. Got it. Often in care packages that I sent to Flint, just in case I'm worried about Kurt's caffeine consumption. So yes.

Kurt: 9:15

I, I have had, uh, my own grackle. It's very good.

Jamie: 9:19

There was an embargo for a little while where he wasn't sure if he was able to go get coffee and so we took care of that. Yeah.

Evelyn: 9:30

not sure if you can get your own coffee.

Kurt: 9:33

Well, you know, the pandemic, uh, you know, even involved like porch pickup from from a neighbor, It's a desperate times. That's true, desperate times. But those days are past us now, uh, for the most part. So, oh, Jamie brought back a, an old memory that I, I hadn't thought about in quite some time, but, oh, thanks. So what, what, um, You know, we've, we've been live for a few minutes now, and

Jamie: 10:04

so see, Evelyn, like this is the evolution of, of, of you, you know, y'all's con your all's podcast. Um, can you, can you tell us a little bit, just a little, I mean, you, you guys, I looked at the numbers because we do sometimes look at our, our, you know, co-conspirators in the podcast architecture realm just to see where they are, make make sure we're, you know, we're not falling behind too badly. Um, but you guys have like 110 episodes. Um, how does that, we do, how does that feel? and, and talk and talk a little bit about you and your co-host. I mean, uh, cause cause she's a, she's

Evelyn: 10:39

a friend as well, so Yeah. She, so, um, We have 110 episode. I, I, I don't know, a hundred seemed like such a, a hard num. I don't know, a big number. I guess when we started, you know, how you kind of need to decide how you're going to number your episodes, like, and how many leading zeros you want. did you guys have this conversation too?

Kurt: 11:02

Uh, we, we, we've dealt with the, we haven't talked about it much, but we did. Yeah. Uh, I think Kurt

Jamie: 11:08

internalized that conversation and then told me about it later.

Kurt: 11:11

Well, I had the opportunity to like re number everybody.

Jamie: 11:15

Yeah, we did do that. Yeah.

Kurt: 11:17

Yeah. As this thing kept going, I was like, wait a minute, I'm out of

Jamie: 11:21

zeros.

Evelyn: 11:24

So I think, I think like three zeros seemed like way too many for us. So we're like, we two. So hitting one, hitting 100 was like a, was a pretty big thing. And I, and then we, and we started, um, when we were with our original producer Gable, we're like, we'll just do 12 episodes and see where it goes. So it's, it's been interesting to see it evolve. So it's called Practice Disrupted. It's Janine and I, um, and we always have a guest on, so sometimes they are, well, often they're good friends. We actually talked to, I. As are off earlier this week, so that'll come out in two weeks. Um, let me hear my kids. They just came home. Um,

Jamie: 12:07

it's okay. Like the background noise for us is like, it's part of it all. Yeah, it's part of it all. Sometimes, sometimes the neighbors just decide, you know, right now is the perfect time to mow. So, yeah. Yes. Inhabits, you know, work on the motorcycle Yeah. Right, right.

Evelyn: 12:28

But, um, yeah, so no, it's, uh, it, the idea is to have these very forward thinking conversations about architecture, so individual in individuals and firms in traditional practice that are doing interesting things. So I can think of Diana. Or Diane Nicholas from some architects based out in Boston, right? She has unlimited PT O, which I think most architect firms hear that and they're like, wait, what? How do you manage unlimited p t o? That's ridiculous. Um, but she does. So firms that are doing things a little bit differently, um, architects that have left a profession and are doing other things. Um, one of, um, we ca we brought on, um, uh, A set designer from Disney. Um, so she does, she, I think she's still working on a lot of the boba, um, series. So that's kind, that was really cool. Oh, thanks Kurt for that little. That, that plug. So, um, but yeah, and then we just, we just talk about how, how can we move practice forward And it's usually, Janine and I are kind of business operation geeks and like leadership and professional development. That's kind of where we live, so, so we talk about a lot of that too.

Jamie: 13:55

Well, yeah. And I was, um, there's one of your recent episodes I do wanna talk about, but before I do, um, and ask more probing questions about it, um, yeah. This kind of maverick architecture thing to us. Um, Kurt and I were talking about it sort of in advance of, of having yawn, and one of the things that oftentimes we'll just, we'll casually refer to it kind of as we're talking about our experience as architects and doing what we do and coffee and art and all. Is sort of this big tent idea. Um, and it, it, some of it for me stems from when I was back in college and not necessarily knowing I wanted to be an architect until probably my third or fourth year. I mean, I didn't, I didn't go to architecture school like out of the gate. Um, so, um, you know, I, I trans, I transferred or switched majors my first year, so, um, Around my third or fourth year, I kind of realized that architecture was, was certainly the, the tent or the profession that was gonna at least give me some, some latitude to do the things that I thought I was good at and that I was interested in. Um, but it also, it was part of the study of these other architects that were, you know, amazing designers, different thinkers, you know, problem solvers. And I had a professor who was. Kind of creating a seminar at the time, but it never kind of materialized. But she shared with me, she's like, yeah, there's all these architects. Who are these people who have, you know, been trained as architects who, you know, can't call themselves architects at that time, um, but are doing amazing things in the all these other industries. And so their education, you know, is and is the thing that they always go back to. And the, the the point that sort of stuck with me when she talked about it, and then another professor there that um, kind of spoke about it in the same way was this idea of those people who've been through what we've been through. Um, And aren't in practice, in traditional practice, you know, whatever that really means. Um, they usually love architecture at their core, like, you know, absolutely. You know, at, you know, at the end of the day, they're probably the best patrons of architecture, you know, if, if we were talking about patronage, but you know, as if we're looking for allyship. That to me is that's, that's the group that, you know, if we, you know, kind of switch the script, that's the group that, you know, we probably should, that's

Evelyn: 16:26

also the group we oust right now, right? That's,

Jamie: 16:29

and that's the one we like. No, no, no, no, no. You, it's like, and so for us, you know, Kurt and I sort of approach it a little differently, but I think that that's, um, something that I appreciate when I listen to you guys talk to people and kind of get at their stories. Um, The one I was thinking about was your most recent one with Melissa Daniel, um, for architecture is political. Um, but I Is that something as a, as a topic that you guys have touched on before? I didn't recall. You had sort of. Looking at the relationship to that. Um, cuz I know she's, she's kind of changed her trajectory just slightly. Mm-hmm. but, you know, it's, um, you know, I've, I've, you know, there's, there's reasons why I, I, I, I bring her up. But, um, and that politic that, that. podcast, but

Evelyn: 17:22

Yeah. Well, I mean, she has her own architecture's political podcast, right. Um, right. And she had us on that conversation talking about She was literally like, y'all help me understand a i a and what a i A does Right, right. So that was like us on her podcast. Um, You know, and to be fair, Janine had listened to a lot more of, I, I'm not a big podcast listener, I hate to admit it. Um, but Jan, Janine listened to a lot more of her library and her catalog than I had, and she had woven in this really, um, Her story of how she became an architect and, you know, and how she was inspired by her childhood to, to do so. And it, and it wasn't like, it wasn't, it was kind of a, a rough place to grow up in. Um, but no, it's, it's not something that we tend to cover directly. and I'm trying to stop carefully here. Politics is not something that I, I, I talk with, for instance, with my parents a lot because as soon as we open that door, um, I feel like ears start to close, right? So, So, you know, we, we want to make sure we're covering topics that everyone can kind of really grab onto and move the profession forward. But the, but the truth is, if you look at the history of architecture and zoning codes and, and every building you build, you have to submit to, you know, follow codes and submit to a building permit. So inevitably there is. absolutely. Political history with, with architecture. Um, I, I think we just tend to focus on okay, rather than looking back, we are where we are. How, how are, how do we move forward from here? Um, and, and that's where we focus. And even I would say some of this, some of this conversation that we're talking about with Ilia in the future talks about how. how to get money from the federal government to, to support more, um, regenerative buildings. Right. So inherently that's also making architecture political too.

Jamie: 19:52

Yeah, I mean, because I think that that's, and I think for, for me, it's, it's not that it's, it's the political act, but it's the. Advocacy beyond, and I think Melissa sort of mentioned, made it mention of it, she's like, you know, there's always sort of these like two camps when she was sort of talking about the profession and the institute and, and you know, the cool kids, you know, the cool kids or the, or the part of the profession, you know, whatever that means, that really wants to focus on design and sort of, you know, and whatever that traditional practice that's not traditional, you know, it, it's, but that sort of focus solely on design as the, the, be it an end all. And then, but then when the design, what I thought was sort of interesting and you guys didn't go there, but it's, it's something that Kurt and I will oftentimes say is, Design, like you just said, with Elliot, it brushes right up against all of these, you know, pressing current topical things that are either research related or, you know, life and culture and community and, you know, that it's, it's not that we're trying to design ourselves out of it, but at the same time we have to be able to be knowledgeable about it. You have to be contextually Yeah. Aware,

Evelyn: 21:10

right. um, even when you're building a, a single family residential, like Yeah.

Jamie: 21:16

Yes. there's a level of advocacy in our work inherently just because of the work that we do, right. Um, it, it, we're, we're building things that take a long time and, uh, there's a lot of people and players involved in it. And then, you know, ideally it's gonna have a lasting influence, you know, on not just our clients. You know, but like, I mean, the reason why I'm in, I'm in more the public sector now, is that the projects that I really particularly enjoyed were ones that had a broader impact than just the site that it was sitting on. Um, and so having that and then the education aspect of my job now, like I'm able to design, but I'm also able to educate at the same time. Sometimes surreptitiously in the process where you're like, you're, you're bringing other things to the table and people don't kind of realize, cause they've asked for consulting services. Um, right. And I think Kurt's seen that even in his, his transition from his firm to sole proprietorship, you know, is that there's. A level of education that he wasn't necessarily doing at the, his previous practice that he's particularly good at. Um, oh, thanks,

Kurt: 22:32

Well, yeah, I, I, I wonder, um, it, I didn't really expect to the, to bring up, well get into the, the political aspect, but, but what, well, my only point to that is that it, it does seem kind of sad. At that, the, the topic alone. like, has become such a contentious one when, you know, our, our country runs on, has to run on something, right? Yes. But then it's created, it's kind of devolved or diverged into, I don't know what the right word is, but you know, it's become this kind of hot button thing when it really is when it boils it down, you know, like it's supposed to just be the operating system for the country and, and not necessarily like something to fight over, but, um,

Jamie: 23:20

Well, I mean, I mean, like, I mean, you know, I'm in Texas, right? So, um, you know, if, if I'm going to a small community to, to work on a building and we're talking about, you know, oh wow, how did you guys, you know, handle that big winter storm? It's like, well, where do you think the big winter storm came? you know, and, and so there's some climate responses. I don't mention it as climate responses or resilience, but that's what we're doing. Um mm-hmm. and, and,

Evelyn: 23:55

and you're managing for that without, yeah. Right. In either

Jamie: 23:58

case. In either case. And, and, and so for us as professionals, you know, then, we have to be cognizant of it and start to fold that into our work. Um, you know, it's, you know, you know, Carl kind of made the statement that everybody kind of goes back to Carl Elant, you know, when he said, you know, the greenest building is the one that's already there. And so for me it's like, as a. Historic preservationist or a preservation architect now, um, is, yeah, so many times that camp of preservationists and sustainable designers or green builders or. Um, you know, lead architects, you know, they were sort of seen as sort of opposing forces, but it's, it's not, that's, that's, that's the complete opposite, you know, situation to what, you know, reality is. We, we understand that, but it's, um, I think it's, that to me is, is the political aspects of stuff. Um, you know, kind of pulling it out and, and really kind of talking about it. because it changes cuz it, cuz I think it goes back to your, your podcast that you guys are focused on, where it's, how is practice changing and how are all these external forces changing it? And then how are the people inside it? Conversely changing it, you know, because of their own reactions to it. Um, right.

Kurt: 25:22

Absolutely. Well, I wonder too, I mean, not sorry, Evelyn, but interrupt, but the, uh, you know, with my current, uh, you know, in tandem with working, uh, uh, for myself, I, I do teaching at the university, uh, Lawrence Tech University here in Michigan, and I, I find it very interesting now. To engage with these future architects because in the same way about, uh, you know, the future of the profession is like, what, what are these graduates, fewer future graduates? Like, what do they want out of architecture? Right? The way they, they perceive what they're going through in school, it still by and large has a lot of the. The, the, the, the workflow or the tradition that, you know, the three of us have gone through and then our predecessors. So it, it doesn't change in academia as fast either than say, like, you know, the profession in academia or moving forward, but, you know, maybe not as fast as say like the, the generations are are wanting it to. And anyway, so I do kind of. Check the pulse of my students from time to time on like aspects that intrigue them more than, than say the, the, the components of the education that I, I enjoy because, you know, if, if we can't, we have to, my point is we have to kind of adapt as well to, to who is going to come into the profession. Mm-hmm. to maintain that relevance as well. Right. It, it's, it sort of, All the way from, say, the generations that are retiring all the way down to the people that are, you know, thinking about architecture, school and the profession, why they would want to go spend this money on a degree in this particular, uh, avenue of, of education. And so, um, it's sort of a sense of stewardship too, really. You know, you want them to gain what they. A value out of this, you know, this proposition of going to school for four to five, six years plus. So, um, yeah, so I, I mean, I don't really have the answer cuz it does vary, you know, from, from cohort, cohort to cohort or the, you know, the classes that I teach. But, um, it definitely has been exciting to, to be able to have that opportunity at least to like, kind of engage with some of the younger people in the profession. Um, you know, I. To, this is my, my, I I hate to say that I have done this, but I have used the term when I was your age, I did this. I never thought I would ever say that sort of thing, but, uh, here we are.

Jamie: 28:16

Well, are you, no, go ahead. Can you, can you talk to like that whole future thinking, because I know that that was something that when you. looking at Yaf 25, for instance, like I know, you know, futurism and sort of looking forward as in, I remember conversations with you then when you were sort of thinking about what that positioning starts to look like and Right. What, you know, who were you talking to then and, and who and how has that changed even too? I mean, as you're starting. react to what Kurt was saying.

Evelyn: 28:51

Yeah, no, I, I, so I wanna double back a little bit on what Kurt's saying, cuz I am generally finding, and this is true of most, I feel like, what, what? other industries are hearing of Gen Z too, is they want work that is socially impactful. They want an employer, right, that is socially impactful. So then how, how can you not So if you think about it, then really how can you not be political? But if you look at everything is managing supply chain to some degree, and then anyways, um mm-hmm. and then you're touching politics. But then, um, uh, so I, I think. You know, it's, it's been under, so when I was doing the Practice Innovation Lab, Um, that was, uh, that was 20 17, 20 18. It was really, I was, I at an interesting place in my life because I had gotten, I went back to school, got my MBA and mpa, and I was running this group, this strategy group that was in a small to medium size design firm, mk, think. You know, we were at our, our smallest, we were probably 12 at the biggest While I was there, we were like closer to 40, but the strategy group was specifically started to look at services on both sides of traditional practice. So how do we stay further engaged with our clients? How do we get into those conversations? When our clients are deciding like whether or not they even need a capital improvement project, so Jamie, we could talk to them about stuff like adaptive re reuse, um, rather than building new things like that. Um, and. we were able to allow it at a higher rate than, because these are, these are, uh, like school districts. Mm-hmm. um, library systems universities that have a pretty standard way that they engage with architects. But because we were engaging in new and different types of services, we were able to structure our fee at a much higher rate than we could structure the architectural fee. Um, and the strategy group helped carry MK think through the recession. because they were still getting paid for this type of client work, even though the, the building of buildings slowed, slowed down. Um, and then I was like, well, why aren't we doing more of this? Um, and, and what does the, what does a, what does a different business model look like in order for us to not be. So pulled in different directions when it comes to recessions, right? Every recession we lose sometimes a generation of architects. When you're looking at the, the pipeline shortage, the talent shortage, right now, I think it's everybody that we lost during the great recession, right? That like left the profession and didn't come back. Um, So, so how do we, how do we set up a business model where we, we aren't losing so many people each time? Um, so that was that conversation. The, the conversation has gotten a little bit, With the pandemic, you know, and change, like changing how people work. Like that conversation continues to evolve because I think now the, uh, the employer, the employee is placing a lot more demands on the employer. Right. So, so now I, I'm, I. and this is why I feel like the architecture, labor movement has grown a lot bigger within the last two years. Um, and you know, with architecture, workers United are doing a lot, is doing a lot more. There was that firm in New York that actually. Did have a successful union. I know for a fact that a w U is working with a different, like another handful of firms on doing this. So these conversations continue to happen. There's so many, um, studies out there about culture and how we need to evolve and, and the culture and the practice, the culture of architecture so people can. See themselves having a career and being paid what they want. Um, you know, I know there are firm leaders out there that would love to give individuals. Um, childcare leave for like new adoptions and new children, but you can't do that. Like if you can't support somebody that's non-billable for Right. An extended amount of time. Like, so we have to change the mo like you literally have to change.

Jamie: 33:31

Yeah. Business model is, is sort of the, is the culprit in some of that. But I mean, I think you're right though. Is that the, the, the generational. Um, and the, you know, and what we're seeing with this generation and, and even, and even probably to some extent, you know, generations prior that weren't necessarily ready to kind of have these kinds of conversations. Maybe we're thinking about them. I think you, you said sort of something poignant right there a minute ago, was that it, you know, the, the labor force, you know, is the, the employee is having very, very different conversations with their employer. Um, and, and I think that that dynamic. You know, in and of itself is, is a disruptor, um mm-hmm. but, but one that probably this profession hasn't necessarily ever really encountered at this level before. Right. And so it's like, and that's, that to me is sort of, that's the thing I'm waiting to kind of see. I mean, I'm clearly in a different spot, you know, professionally for myself, but I've also always been, you know, a bit. you know, sorry, Kurt. You know, a shit disturber. I mean, that's, you know, that's, you know, that's just, that's my way of, of

Evelyn: 34:45

why did you have to apologize to Kurt before saying that?

Jamie: 34:48

It's, it's an inside joke. He's like, okay. Yeah, totally.

Kurt: 34:51

We were, uh, we were talking about, you know, keeping it PC or, you know, maybe rated, rated pg. Yeah, I

Evelyn: 35:00

mean, which is, I feel like you can say that like, you know, oh God. Like that's still, that falls under PG squarely,

Kurt: 35:06

so Yeah. anyway. Yeah, he was, we were inside joke, Kurt's

Jamie: 35:12

dog is in the room, so we try and talk and on certain things, but No, but it's, it's to me though, is it's begging the question or, you know, and, and sort of bringing it forward in a way that. we're, we're able to talk about, you know, what does this look like? You know, let's have the conversation, um, as opposed to, oh, no, no, no. Don't you know, don't rock the boat. No, no, no. Don't, you know, don't expect any changes. Um, and you know, for us it kind of goes to that, you know, oftentimes Kurt Nile sort of lean back to it's this big tent idea. There's plenty of other ideas out there, and there's plenty of people who've left the profession for their own reason. Um, this myriad of reasons, like some of them might have found answers leaving the profession that the profession could probably, you know, utilize. Um, yeah.

Kurt: 36:12

Yeah. Well, I would, I, I mean, I, I mean a clear, just a, a clear point that I'd like to make since we all have known each other so long, but, um, I remember when, you know, being on the Y A F Young Architects Forum and Evelyn was in that strategy position. But the point you just prove, I mean, it's, there's no better point to say that like it carried a firm through the recession. Cuz I mean, I still have my own PTs d from the recess. you know, because I feel like I, I, I, a lot of my peers are the ones that are not here now because they got laid off. I mean, I got laid off too, but somehow I clawed my way back into this, into this profession. But, um, so the point, you know, and then moving and then moving to Slack now, right? And then using that same skillset. and, uh, you know, design thinking and, and strategy mind and, and in a realm that. Maybe a, a lot of people wouldn't perceive an architect being the person to be, you know, to be there. But I think that just is a, a great example of how, like, if we want to maintain relevance, the, the definition of architect or the traditional definition, I guess of architect needs to expand to where we. uh, um, you know, like, like, like, I guess the easiest way to explain it is now that I'm on my own right, I get a phone call and say, do you do blueprints of a house? Right? I, I get asked, do you do houses or do you do commercial buildings? Right? Like, so deciding which, which silo that I and Kurt says, yes, that I wanna be. And

Jamie: 37:59

the answer is to all, all of the above.

Evelyn: 38:01

Yes. So including the

Jamie: 38:03

blueprints. Yeah. It's the blueprints for a little while least. Right.

Kurt: 38:07

But, uh, anyway, I just wanna make that part clear. You know, I think, um, you know, just, uh, yeah, just like how things, how. Well, anyway, I guess, you know, what, what you've demonstrated in your career path so far and, and then you know, similarly or in, in Jamie's line of work. I mean, still being able to share, I mean, I think it all boils down to like, Sharing our, our knowledge with people. Mm-hmm. Right.

Jamie: 38:38

And it's not just blueprints, Yeah. Well, and I was gonna say, Evelyn, you know, just kind of where you are right now with, you know, with the company that you're in, and not just the role that you're in, but the, the fact that you have that architecture education, um, and, and are, you know, are an architect, um, w. What, what has surprised you about your colleagues, where you're working right now with respect to that? You know, has there been any sort of surprises or kind of unique conversations related to kind of your, yourself as an architect? I mean, I, I mean the, the strategy and the futurist thinking is, you know, it's evident in any conversation we've ever had with you, but Right, right. Um, but I, I'm sort of curious on the other, the other side of things.

Evelyn: 39:27

Um, yeah, so first of all, there's, there's actually a lot of educational conversations. So there's, there's entire groups of software architects in, um, Salesforce, and I'm sure. I would love to somebody have like a camera on my face when, you know, people introduce themselves for the first time To me, as an, an architect, because I can't, I feel like I, I had that ingrained into me like so long, right? Like that you can't say you're an architect until you. take all of your exams. Um, so I'm sure I make this weird kind of face and, um, and I always have to explain that I'm actually a, like, I'm putting my building architect hat on and not like my software architect hat on. So there's actually been a lot of conversations, oddly enough, with with engineers. And to be fair, if you look even at software engineer, they co-op, they co-opted the engineer term too, right? I mean, right, right. Um, but um, but there's been a lot of conver like educational conversations to be had with my coworkers about, uh, There's that actual process to become a licensed professional so that they were just unaware of so, so now like when they are doing additions to their San Francisco homes, they're like, oh, that's why it costs more to bring on an architect than it is to like work with a general. Contract. Like they, they actually understand that difference. So, so that immediately opens the door to those conver, like mm-hmm. those type of conversations. I, I think, you know, they, and then on people that I work more closely with, they appreciate kind of the perspective that I bring. Um, I would say that, If you were to change the language around the value that we are bringing to these organizations that we are, um, we're essent, we're essentially systems thinkers, right? Because if you think about all of the different systems that go into the building that have to work together to make the building work, that's essentially what. I'm doing, but it's not, it's not necessarily building. It's like it's, I'm designing the system to support a better employee experience. And that takes a lot of different things. That takes your HR team, that takes the BizTech team, that takes how we support learning development, career growth. And I'm looking at all of those different systems and how does it create a better employee experience? So, so I think once they work with me, then they, they're like, oh, I see how you're bringing that different perspective to, to the table. And, and then they're like, oh, that's like the architect and you, but, but that comes out more after having some type of working, I think relationship with me. Um, but then they always like, are like, don't, don't, you just like care about the building? And I, and I do have to sometimes say like, I care about our offices, but Right. So much more. And that's the interesting thing, right? Like I get to do all the, the employee change management to con not control is not a good way, but to influence the behaviors and the spaces that we build versus like how many architects actually get to do that, about that spaces. Design, like we, we hand it over. Yeah. And then it might be the behaviors that happened in that space might never like come to it might be what the leadership wished would've happened, but because they didn't go through the change management to actually make that happen. Um, we don't, as an area we don't have any control over. And then, and then they're like, if the building stop performing the way it should be, and it's like, cuz nobody taught you to open the windows to implement the passive, you know, heating and cooling system. So it's, yeah.

Jamie: 43:16

Well, and that in that influence and sort of the brokering of that, I think is really, you know, special. I mean, Kirk talks about sharing, you know, and I think that that's, that's probably where the two of us started this podcast for ourselves was just this idea of we've always been of the mindset in our own careers, and then sort of with our own friendship of just sharing stuff. And it's, it's, there's, you know, there's. it's not rocket science. You know, there isn't any like intellectual property kind of, you know, concerns Um, it's, it's, it's sort of sharing those kinds of experiences and reactions and the things that we learn or the questions that we're asking, like, you know, not even knowing what the answers are, um, and sort of the things that we're thinking about. So when you say that about the systems and how people might, you know, kind of work as an organization or kind of, and envisioning those things. I can really appreciate that. That really resonates with me. I mean, cuz that's, I think as a designer you're, you know, the way, like I try and work with younger members of my team, you know, who younger, you know, maybe in age, but more in experience, um, where the, the thing that I'm trying to impart to them is just this, you know, we are trained to try and synthesize a lot of pieces of inform. And, and imagine what those realities can be, and that that's not something that everybody can do without some level of training. Um, and maybe even some level of instinct too. Um, there's an aptitude probably, you know, to it as well, but that doesn't mean that we can't share that experience. Yeah. With the people that we're working with, you know, or, or working for. Um, and being. Being able to do that. And it sounds like you're even getting a richer involvement in that because you're able to really share that, you know, with, you know, it's sort of the, you, you're working with a lot of folks who aren't architecturally trained, you know, and then you're, you know, that that in and of itself is probably a rich experience.

Evelyn: 45:27

Yeah. Well, it's definitely, you know, what, what I've loved about the profession, or I love about work in general is like every, everything is a learning opportunity. Mm. So, um, constantly learning.

Kurt: 45:44

I, I, I echo that though. I, I totally agree. I, I, I love learning things in, in architecture or in just in general. Right. Just finding out something that I didn't know before. Um, and,

Jamie: 46:00

uh, so before we let you go Oh yeah. Like, we haven't done any sketches and that is, you know, it is the coffee sketch pod. It is.

Evelyn: 46:06

It's Sketch podcast, yes. Yeah, Neil.

Jamie: 46:09

So sometimes we skip over the coffee way too. Usually it's the coffee we skip. Um, but Kurt does have some sketches. Um, we have one that we would love for you to just Oh, see and react to. Um, and is that the AIA building? Yes, Wow. That was fast

Evelyn: 46:32

Well, you know, I was on the building committee last year. I, I actually, I, they didn't put me on this year and they, for, they didn't realize that when I signed up, we didn't assign terms to the aia. And they're like, oh, we thought you were on a two year term. And I was like, I, that's news to me. But anyways, um, sorry. Yes. AIA building with, um, a, a very prominent symbol on the, um, oh shoot. What's that building called again? The octagon. The octagon, yes. I should have known that

Jamie: 47:09

Yeah, no, so it could be

Kurt: 47:11

a while too. Ja, Jamie, you know, this is a Jamie sketch, so Yeah, no

Jamie: 47:17

worries.

Evelyn: 47:18

No. So you're missing the, the stairs on the, the, like the main entrance to the courtyard. You have it

Jamie: 47:24

all fence, Jamie? Yeah, I kind of fenced them off. Um, but, um, yeah, no, I, I think it, what, what it was sort of, and, and I, I appreciate you sort of it. It's sort of jumping out to you what it was and, and what the building was. Um, you know, cuz I think one of the things that, you know, this sketch, I mean it's, it's clearly, you know, this sort of, you know, political aspect of things, you know, and sort of a statement piece. But, um, it, reason why I, I brought it up was that Melissa, Daniel, like, had tweeted out some things. I was listening to your, your episode 1 0 9 and. Um, and so like, it just all sort of connected in Jamie's brain, but this sketch is one where I, I love Christo. I love, you know, Christo and John Claude, the, the artists, um, and wrapping buildings in sort of a temporary kind of way. And so, um, that was sort of the impulse here was sort of wrapping the octagon, um, in a shroud for a moment, um, in time. Um, because I think that, that, that. Space in that building. Um, and, and then the headquarters behind it is sort of an, a really unique piece of DC um mm-hmm. and, um, so yeah, I tried to, tried to capture at least my own kind of Yeah. Creative talk about

Evelyn: 48:52

architecture. I mean, that, that served as the, the White House at one point, right? Right,

Kurt: 48:58

right. So, Oh, right. I, I forgot that. Which, there you go. Full circle

Jamie: 49:06

That's okay. Um, yeah, so I mean, so what is your, like, um, what is your favorite thing in, cuz you, and because of, you know, your, your time in the profession, what is your favorite thing in DC Oh,

Evelyn: 49:23

my favorite thing in DC

Jamie: 49:24

mm-hmm. you thought I was gonna say San Francisco, but.

Evelyn: 49:29

The ironic thing is I've probably been to DC more than I've been into the city since the pandemic I don't have to go into the office that, no, that's probably not true. I've been going into the office a little bit more often, but, um, but I don't have to go in, um, to the office. Favorite thing in dc um, you know, for a while, and it, it is not necessarily the Lincoln Memorial itself, but for a while. Um, The, the board, and I've spent a long time on, on the board. So my, my most recent stint was as treasurer and then before then as at large director. But there's a handful of us that would do a morning walk to the, to the Lincoln Memorial and back. And it was more, um, I mean the memorial itself is great too, but it was also kind of the, the pro, the procession and you know, the mall is always such. Like a, a rich place, place to be with so much history in and of itself as like a space that has a lot of history. Um, but did you know, um, that in the bottom. There's a little exhibit in the bottom of the Lincoln Memorial, um, that you can access, and there is a picture, a hand drawn sketch like this, Jamie, of the, I think it's the current president, somebody very high ranked in our in politics, giving the AIA bestowing the AIA gold medal on an individual.

Jamie: 51:06

Oh, wow. now, now I have a rabbit hole to go down. This is great. Wow.

Evelyn: 51:11

Um, and I'm sorry I don't remember any of the names of the gold medal that's receiver's or the actual bestower, but um, there's like a little piece of AIA history in that little exhibit in under the Lincoln Memorial that not a lot of people know about.

Jamie: 51:25

So. And now that's fantastic cuz I mean, like you said, I mean in like Kurt's reaction to this building, you know, you know the Octagon was the White House, um, during the War of 18. You know, when the White House burned. And so, um, and what I didn't realize at the time, but subs, I just sort of got fascinated with this building and kind of its position. Um, and talked to friends who were not architects who live in DC and they're like, oh, you know, I re I finally realized that your AIA headquarters is in DC and it's this building, but the building in front of it is so fantastic. You know, they would like, and they were raving about the history of that site cuz they were more on the kind of the history kind of of it. Um, but yeah, it's, I didn't realize sort of when the, a, I even was established when they bought the building. Like the Octagon was the headquarters, like mm-hmm. was, was the original, original. like, you know, headquarters. And so, um, I just, I thought it was sort of one of those situations where you be, you know, you become stewards of a property and kind of the, the preservation aspects of it, which is often the case. But, um, yeah, it's sort of, there's a beautiful history of, of, of these places and spaces, um, that I, I think that's, that's the thing that's always sort of drawn us to them is sort of the stories. Um, and, and like you said about. The, the mall itself. I mean, that procession and that space. I mean, how do you capture that in a sketch? You know? It's, it's an experience. So, yeah, definitely. Do you, so do you still sketch?

Evelyn: 53:05

Do I sketch? I've never been a really good sketch, but, but that's also why I don't think I ever really did well in traditional practice, frankly. Was because that was never my architecture. I love the process of making, but if I, if I were to be in a firm right now, it'd probably, it would need to be a firm large enough where I could essentially, Be the equivalent of the COO or you know, the direct, like the principle of operations and, and that would be kind of the space I operated in or, you know, somewhere on the, the construction management side or administration side. But I don't, but I, I also don't like the, the technical aspects of getting, like, I just. There are people that really geek out on the technical aspects, and I, and I understand that I'm just not one of them. So I think they should also manage the construction and administration and not necessarily me, but, um, I just, I don't know. I know my lane and I'm not a sketcher.

Jamie: 54:02

That's okay. That's okay. Um, yeah,

Evelyn: 54:05

but I, but I'm a big fan of all of Jamie's sketches on Instagram only. I haven't been on Instagram lately, which is why my likes have fallen off. But when I am on Instagram, Yes.

Jamie: 54:15

Well, I, I mean, like, I, like we were saying before is like the sketching for us and the even, you know, I mean, the impetus for this podcast was that, um, the two of us wanted to sort of share our thoughts, um, and short share our experiences, you know, and it's, it's the banter, but it's also, you know, the sketch is doing that. Um, and then it's not, um, it's not, certainly not about perfection. Um, and it's. you know, it's, it's about sort of drawing other people into the conversation. Um, and, and if, if we can do that where you're enjoying them, awesome. Like that's, you know, that, you know, that makes, that makes me feel really, you know, that touches me. And I, you know, I mean, just, I mean that's, that's the, those are the reactions that I really appreciate. I mean, cuz when someone says, oh, I was watching your, you know, I was looking at your sketches, I really liked them. And it's like, You know. Wow, okay. You know, I'm just, I'm sort of doing them cuz it helps me think. Right. Um, I'm,

Kurt: 55:17

I'm really only here for the

Jamie: 55:18

little therapy too, but, you know, you're here for the outtakes.

Evelyn: 55:22

I think my equivalent of Jamie's sketching is writing and I I write a lot.

Kurt: 55:29

Yeah. And I don't, and I, I wouldn't say Yeah, we we're not here. We, we don't, uh, what's the word? Uh, you know, Put down anybody for, for no discrimination sketches or, you know, no discrimination. No, there's no gatekeeping. But yeah, your writing is, is excellent. I mean, you've written for Architect Magazine and, and others. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I, I'm sure you've written so much. Plus you've built your whole platform of practice of architecture as well, and so the, uh, yeah, just like Jamie said, you know, it's the. The thinking through the process. Yeah. And, and it has various outlets of creativity.

Jamie: 56:14

Well, and, and so Evelyn, you know, just, I, I was just gonna say is, you know, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Um, and, you know, and for, I mean, just sort of sharing what you do, I mean, but also sort of sharing how you approach it. Um, I think, you know, if. You know, is there anything else that you want to kind of share with us in our audience? I mean, cuz I think that there's, it, it's, I mean, you're talking about, you know, the practice of architecture and disrupting it, you know, a lot, you know, with your colleagues, but, But I think that there's a lot of similarities to the things that we sort of talk about on ours. Um, so, um, but I, I, I think that the, the interview part of yours, you guys do really, really well. Um, so thank you for being patient with. With Kurt and I No,

Evelyn: 57:04

no, no. This is fun. Um, I mean, I would, I would, Jamie, I would just hope that your audience is as open as the two of you are about kind of alternative paths and how we bring those voices back into the fold. Cause I think, and I don't know if we said this before we started the recording or not, but I think absolutely the people that kind of left, you know, they, they went through the same educa they went through the same torturous education that we did. And just because they stepped off that path doesn't mean that their love of architecture Right. Has, has suffered or has has, um, is any. So, um, even if they find themselves in different fields, I think they, they are our strongest allies and, and advocates if we, if we let them be right, rather than kind of seeing them as outcasts. So

Jamie: 57:56

Well said. Thank you. Cheers to that. Yes. And with that,

Kurt: 58:04

I think there are some hungry people.

Jamie: 58:07

They're,

Evelyn: 58:08

they're running around. We have a subfloor, so I can, I can, it's, I mean, we, we don't have a slab on grades, so when I'm, when my kids are running through the house, like you can't not hear them running through the house. Oh, I guess. They're, they're, I'm sure they're interested in dinner sometime in, in the near future. Yeah.

Kurt: 58:28

Well, we, we shouldn't let, uh, or we shouldn't get in the way of that. So I will pitch it to the outro and let you, and let you go. So thanks again and we will talk to you soon.

Evelyn: 58:42

Thanks. Well, I get to see both of you.

Jamie: 58:45

Oh,

Evelyn: 58:48

Sorry, I could have asked that. After the Alto.

Kurt: 58:52

Alright.

Jamie: 58:54

Are you both in San Francisco? Yes. We're both gonna be there.

Kurt: 58:57

Yes. Yeah. And we're gonna gonna take this show on the road, Yeah,

Jamie: 59:02

that'll be fun. Okay.

Evelyn: 59:03

Sorry, I didn't mean to Go ahead.

Jamie: 59:05

No, that is, that is the perfect, like for

Kurt: 59:08

this. Oh, that's it. On

Jamie: 59:10

scene. That's totally out there. Yeah, that's, that's Kurt's favorite part. Finding those

Kurt: 59:16

good albums. Thank you so much for that. Oh, it's a reward.