Coffee Sketch Podcast

100 - Memory Marks

June 12, 2022 Kurt Neiswender/Jamie Crawley Season 4 Episode 100
Coffee Sketch Podcast
100 - Memory Marks
Show Notes Transcript

Thank you for listening. We both hope that you enjoyed this episode of Coffee Sketch Podcast. Our Theme music is provided by my brother who goes by @c_0ldfashioned on Instagram and Twitter. Our podcast is hosted at coffeesketchpodcast.com find more show notes and information from this episode. And finally, if you liked this episode please rate us on iTunes and share us with your friends! Thank you!


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In situ, art, architecture, sketching, coffee, coffee sketch, podcast, coffee sketch podcast, what an architect does, design, design thinking, drawing, buildings, building sketches, sketches, pen, paper, sketchbook, coffee stains, watercolor, pencil sketches, markers, black and white, architects, architecting, ink sketch, ink drawing, cafe sketch, cafe sketching, urban sketching 

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Kurt:

Hey Jamie, how you doing?

Jamie:

100,

Kurt:

100.

Jamie:

100, 100

Kurt:

we have, and those w we're not, we're not practicing, different takes. We're just going to say 100, a hundred times. Finally,

Jamie:

let's say, for all the people who have small children, like, that the hundredth day of school is like, a hundred day apparently is like a big. I don't remember this when I was a kid, but yeah, I don't remember that. so there, teachers get creative and they're like, this is a a hundred pencils. This is a hundred, a hundred pencils isn't creative,

Kurt:

but what we need to like a hundred hours,

Jamie:

a hundred hours, or like a hundred coffee cups.

Kurt:

Well, I know we have more than a hundred.

Jamie:

Yes, we definitely have more than

Kurt:

well what's, what's the temp. You told me that it's getting warm in, in

Jamie:

Austin. it's getting warm. So we're going to have in, in, I think in honor of our hundredth episode, we're going to have a week of a hundred degree temperatures here in Austin.

Kurt:

That's great. For the commemoration, maybe not so great for the life, not for the climate, the climate or lifestyle, right? It'll keep Jamie inside in the AC sketching. Well, we've got to hit. We've got, now we've got to, the goal will be 200 and hopefully when we hit 200, It won't be 200

Jamie:

degrees. We don't want that

Kurt:

only in our cup, 200 degree coffee

Jamie:

or something,

Kurt:

or you, well, you go for. Anything to in w what's the coffee that's celebrating

Jamie:

100. I am. I'm still going with this, this new, limited edition blend. That's gonna know, inspire Kirk to go back to the store. it is a vanilla with a Madagascar vanilla. I did not know there was such things. apparently such things exist. but yeah, it's a, I dunno how different business than vanilla from somewhere else, but, now it's, it's very nice with a little bit of a honey honey flavor to it. That's great.

Kurt:

The, oh, I now I've forgotten. Well, I, I, I too, I'm still syncing. Her at a hundred, I'm drinking Starbucks as well. So it's still got a little bit of the Yukon, Yukon blend, which fires fires me. You.

Yeah.

Jamie:

I'm like, you're on, you're like what? Six, the seventh cup today. Yeah.

Kurt:

I mean, it's just, I'm just getting started. Right? Right. It's just the beginning. I've got a hundred. To drink today.

Jamie:

So,

Kurt:

Hey man, congratulations. Thank you for joining me to make a hunt, to make a hundred of these episodes.

Jamie:

I know this is like our, our big group hug moment. Kurt had this crazy idea and like, Hey, why don't we do a podcast where no one can see us? and no one can see these sketches and let's talk about them. and, and also, have a cup of coffee and make it a conversation. So here we are a hundred episodes later and, and yes, we do them with the video on, which is, intriguingly fun as well. and I think we've been getting a little bit better. hopefully maybe we'll do a little bit more live sketching, in the next a hundred

Kurt:

episodes. Yeah. The tech tech has improved a tiny bit. I'm still, I'm still thinking about how to do that live, still working on that one. There's some, there's some tools and apps,

Jamie:

apps, apps, apps. Well, and, and, and I do have some news, for the hundredth episode. So, speaking of live sketching, I was selected again, to do a workshop for the state architecture conference here in Texas, which will be in El Paso, this fall. And so I will be doing again, a three-hour work. On coffee sketching, on tour, in, in, in situ in the real life. Very cool. Yeah. It'll be fun.

Kurt:

Well, the, where's the album is the album El Paso. It

Jamie:

is in San Antonio. Yeah. I think that was last year,

Kurt:

so, well, this is a terrible. Blunder of mine since we're this, we decided to talk about some sketches of some historical architecture. I don't even know where the Alamo

Jamie:

and you don't even know where the Alamo is. It's all right, Texas is the big state. There's a

Kurt:

likelihood. I might not know where this building is. Yeah, I just kidding.

Jamie:

Not really sure. Well, is El Paso, El Paso, west,

Kurt:

Texas. I do know that there is the UTEP university of Texas El Paso, and those, I think what doesn't the UTEP, the home of the UTEP two-step two-step well, how about the UTEP?

Jamie:

Are these like dad jokes?

Kurt:

I think so. Okay. I think I learned them from my dad.

Jamie:

Yeah. Are you, you channeling your brother,

Kurt:

so that's right. He's in town. He's, he's a dad and he's got a mood. He's a, he's a seasoned. Inventor.

Jamie:

Right. Well, he's also an engineer, which I think like, is sort of a terrible, terrible combination for, for, for those types of things.

Kurt:

he, he does listen and he's gonna, he's gonna feel a little chapped. He's going to pull the rights to our theme music. We're going to have to no, he won't. W w we'll apologize. coffee, sketch mug and a pin and a

Jamie:

swag swag.

Kurt:

We need swag. Speaking of which, see there should be a logo on that mug, but there's not. So before we get into the sketch, Jamie. We gave a shout out to a good friend on episode 99, our friend Ilya running for office at AI national. So today we should shout out another good friend, a fellow architect, fellow AIA colleague committee, fellow, as far as. Shared committee work with her on the young architects forum. And she is a fellow of the AI as well as Ilya is evidently the, the, hosts co-hosts I suppose, of practice of architecture podcasts on, on the west coast,

Jamie:

the west coast. So Texas third coast, best coast

Kurt:

to a hundred degree

Jamie:

coast Ilia on the east coast. Everyone on the west coast. Yes. But yeah, Evelyn is, Evelyn is also running for office and I'm definitely endorsing that as well. and hoping that she will, be successful in her bid to be the next. AIA president

Kurt:

present. Right. She's running for VP then president elect. And so, and, yeah. So w we, we at coffee sketch podcast rooting for you,

Jamie:

Evelyn. Absolutely.

Kurt:

And, and if you haven't heard their podcasts, I was going to

Jamie:

say, and if you haven't heard their podcast, definitely, Janine

Kurt:

and Evelyn of practice for architects. Really good stuff.

Jamie:

Well, and I think, some of it too is, you and I were, were chatting about this offline, last week was that, in Evelyn's role with the young architects forum and her interest in, in practice and how practices, evolution, the evolution of practice in architecture. No both for her own career trajectory. And then, the things that she's been interested in and, people that she's met along the way. and she did a, a conference in basically helped organize, and spearhead a conference that you and I both attended, which was the, a young architect forum summit, 25. so the 25th year, of the architect's forum at national level. and so you and I, participated in that in Virginia, with, I guess 48 other colleagues, and, did and discussed sort of what the next, Not just the next generation of architects would be, but sort of the next evolution of what architecture role practice would be. And I think it was a, it was a fun, fun format, couple good days of interesting discussions and presentations, kind of creative problem solving. And, it was, it was good. Really enjoyed it.

Kurt:

Yeah. And, honestly, and I don't know if I've ever actually. I probably haven't mentioned this to hell. No, maybe I have, but, one of the big takeaways, I think from some at 25 was the end, which was named the practice innovation lab, was the idea of sort of a decentralized and remote office structure that could compete at the same level as a sort of what traditional practice, which involves. All hands on deck, sort of in an office, physical space together. And so one of the, I think success models out of that is the jam collective, which is part, part of which this group is comprised of some fellow young architect, forum colleagues as well. Christian and Abby, and. A few others that we didn't actually share committee time with. But, the cool thing is, is they, they have taken that and carried it forward. Right. And so now fast forward, five years later, which I think in any professional organization to see something conceptualized one term in less than five years, because it's already been, in, in, it's already in it. What's the word in the works it's already working. It's already a thing. Well, before the, the, the, the next summit, let me stumble through that one, but basically less than five years, you have proof of concept of, of, of the, of this, sort of model, or, or office model. I don't think if we didn't discuss this. I mean, I'm not going to say that it was, only thought of in, in, summit 25, but just by having summit 25, that conversation, this pandemic that forced everybody to a remote work model, kind of shed light on the, Hey, this can work and, and by being forced into that position, Bye sheltering at home or working from home anyway. So that's exciting. I think, I think it's really, it's always exciting to see something come to fruition from a concept.

Jamie:

Right. Well, I mean, and, and just, it was, I think exposure, for a lot of us too. he, again, you, and I've talked about this quite a bit. and, and others as well. Is that the, the benefit of having served on a national. Committee, for our professional society was, it, services, something that, is sort of ingrained in us and, and, and something that is part of our, our own ethic. it's just, who we are as people. but I think that the privilege of being able to serve on that is one thing, but I think it was sort of the, the, the bonus, is that you get to have this opportunity to just see. What other people, in similar stations in life, in their careers, different stations in life, different backgrounds, all from all over the country are having discussions that are, either similar to yours or so different that, you, the exposure to that is, is the, is the real benefit. sort of this opportunity to kind of hear. out of context, out of Europe, putting yourself out of your own context and into a conversation, is always sort of the, I'm stumbling through this one, but it's a it's, as an answer, but it's, I think I've always just loved it. I mean, it's, it's energizing, and, and, and refreshing to have those kinds of conversations with folks. And, I think the summit was, a, a snapshot of that, of course. But like you say, I mean, there were, there were some tangible, results from that. some of which we didn't necessarily expect the time. I don't think that they went into that conference thinking that, jam was going to be something. That existed, post-conference and, and then you look at what Evelyn, and that podcast are doing in terms of having extended conversations about practice of architecture and, and, and the breadth of what that means. It's not just the practice, like. it's the practice like this, would you, and I tend to talk about, anyways, from our own perspectives, but, yeah, I think it's that exposure is always been something that has been, the hidden benefit, it's, of. being part of the professional society, as much as you and I both disagree with quite a bit, of, some of the politics of things, for lack of a better term, the, I think that you can. be the change agent from the interior or the exterior. and you and I have always sort of done it from the interior, even if we sometimes feel compelled to be on the exterior. So, but yeah, I mean, I, I really wish Evelyn the best, as well as Elliot. but Evelyn, especially, cause I think that her own career trajectory, would bring a really. Perspective, about this sort of practice of architecture and, and what does, what does the future hold?

Kurt:

yeah. And so, as we, as we segue into an, there are sketch for today and one more, 100 is I think the premise of summit 30 is. Zoom into the future a hundred years and think about what the profession of architecture looks like. So that's the sort of the strategy for that conversation, which is really intriguing. And I think, What is going to be a very fruitful, session that they put together. I

Jamie:

think it will be. And I think, as, as we transitioned to the sketch for today, is as much as some at 30 projects out a hundred years into, a future sense, as, as architects do, I mean architects and artists and philosophers and educators and practitioners of all types, we'll look at manifestos for the future, try and figure out what that sort of, futurist think kind of concept is. But I think. What the sketches and sort of the conversation, the short, shorter conversation today will be about is, as much as we're projecting forward and we can't ignore the past and, and how we grapple with it. and the conversations that weren't had, and the histories that weren't told and the stories that. People don't want to have, because they find them uncomfortable. and when those intersections occur in a built reality, it's not just about encountering somebody and having that conversation that may be uncomfortable, but being in a space that makes somebody feel uncomfortable. because you're, you're, you're living with that built in. And that's something that, I hadn't a recent experience with. and so a couple of weeks ago, went to my first national main street conference. hadn't gotten a plane a long time, which was, of course a pandemic world. but flew to Virginia, conference was in Britain. and was excited to, to see a city that I had not, not been in, and explore, but also to connect with colleagues, who are doing similar work to mine, but in different states. And so I I'm, I'm in Texas now and working as a, a Mainstreet architect for this. And, but have colleagues that I've been conferencing with and, in zoom rooms, for months and months, over the past couple of years, past two years, I guess. and so this was an opportunity to see a lot of them in, in person. And what we do is pre-conference to, the larger conference the architects get together for, for two days and, share best practices and. And then do some architectural tours, do the architecture junkie, figure out where we're going. who's local, what things that are on our, our wishlist to go see. and so one of one part of that tour was, going to UVA and actually, and actually seeing the, the campus that Thomas Jefferson. his brainchild was. And so the sketch, is of the rotunda, and his version of the Pantheon, in rural Virginia. so that was. a treat for me, because at least, the Pantheon as a building, as I've shared on the podcast before is arguably my favorite building. and so to, to know that that was the touchstone, architecturally, that. Jefferson wanted to anyway, with this particular building and, and the campus, was just interesting just to see, I mean, not even talking about him as an architect or as a person, or as a past president, it's just, knowing that architectural lineage to this, from a process standpoint was just sort of, sort of an interesting thing to see. And, walk around and then inhabit. but yeah, that was

Kurt:

so well. So does it have, I mean, we both have been to the Pantheon luckily and, and yeah, it's, it's, it's also, it's, it's one of those things that I, I would love to get to see in person myself. just knowing, to, have that experience of historic American architecture, that you, that, like you said earlier, related to current, current events as far as, race and, The history of the country and Jefferson, as a part of that history and, and, slaves and indentured people, or I'm thinking of the, anyway, so I, I was thinking of another term and I couldn't remember iPods. So, anyway, whether or not, the history. It should be, amplified, but at least understanding the time and the place. So, anyway, so the question was, is it, does this, the interior of this return to have that same sort of close effect that the Pantheon dome has? Or is it different? Okay. I don't remember

Jamie:

entirely different, cause this actually has multiple floors in it. and, and even that to, to a certain degree, has changed over time. Cause there was a fire with the building. and it was, it was, it was restored. and actually I think this is the second restoration of the building, which is a loop that this second one is a little bit more. sensitive to some of the original aspects of the design. and so we were actually able to tour the campus with the campus. which was fantastic. so, the most, most university campuses have a campus architect in this particular case. when the, when the architect is, Tom Thomas, Jefferson, of the original market architect of the campus, there's, there's some, there's some aspects of that. That role today for a campus architect that, certainly have, a lot of baggage and, and, and, and it probably a different role than, than most campus architects. But, the gentleman who toured us around, I can't remember his name. he was, he was very generous with his time, but also sort of his description of things and, and describing the process of the current restoration of the building and, and the documents that they historically had to go back and go through the archive. And. and, and it was nice to hear him sort of be critical of, the lack of drawings, that, that Jefferson had for this building, and for the campus in general, the drawing set was, was pretty limited. but at the same time, there were some very exacting specifications, for the building. And a lot of them were related to. Jefferson's understanding of Italian architecture and his understanding of Palladio and understanding of the Pantheon. And so there was a, there was an exacting specification of what his, theoretical premise, from there to here, was, and then of course there were some, less than spectacular. accounting, for that specification where, some of, some of the Corinthian columns that you're seeing here, might've also been, part of a, a work order, where some of those things went from Monticello as well. So you had the university and his residents. both being effectively developed at the same time. and so, the architect was talking about even when they went back through to find a lot of, documentation of that interior space, you're back to your question of, what was the dome like, was it, was it painted, what was the ornament. w how, how should it be rendered today? So they went back through a lot of that, that documentation, which included the specifications as well as, the bill of goods, for those things. and, and this university at the same time has also been going through its own reckoning. And, and, and that brings us to kind of the other image that you had on the screen a moment ago, which is a, then the newest addition to the campus, which is a monument to the enslaved. individually. Yeah, the enslaved laborers, and individuals who effectively built this campus. Right. And the story of their lives that came out in a lot of these documents that these architectural historians were looking at, related to the buildings themselves, this built history. in those records, you see this accounting of people and have a story that really wasn't being told and, but was, was ever present, in the buildings and the campus itself. So there was a, a conscious effort, by the university to create a Memorial on the campus, in the central campus. and it was so, and it, it only was dedicated in 2021. So we was something that I was aware of. there was a lot of news reporting at the time, both architecturally, as well as in just sort of, regular national press. And so it was something that, going to this campus. I definitely wanted to see.

Kurt:

Yeah. Cool. And it's interesting. The old and the new, as far as constructions, and then the juxtaposition to use an architectural term, of, of the, the spaces sort of above and below and, and, sort of ornate and minimal. And symbolic and retrospective, all kinds of, meaning sort of embedded into, into the design. And actually, let me share real quick, the, the architects of the Memorial, website real quick. On page this page. So, you and I were talking about this ahead of time, but, designed by Heller Yoon, which, they're based on the east coast, but, we will come back to that. So the interesting way they've presented it on their way. With this nice aerial photo in the wintertime, which is fascinating, this perfect circle that they've created, but it's more like in three dimensions, these sort of layers or rings that they've developed as their description of the project. Is down below, but, representing 4,000 enslaved men, women and children who built and sustained the daily life of the university. so for faculty, students, staff, or, them, themselves being the staff, holding this whole thing together. Right. And so, the interesting siting, right? So if you look at the lower right here, you can see the rotunda in the distance. And then the lawn adjacent is sort of triangular space of lawn, where the Memorial is, as it sort of emerges out of the ground. And actually let me see, I, I was trying to hint, oh, you can kind of see it here, but they, they, they rendered and the interesting. The bit of technology that is sort of leveraged to, to fabricate manufacture this Memorial is also intriguing to me, and how they must have sort of computationally derived, the chiseling or carving of this, the stone skin on the Memorial. But so that the exterior is sort of etched or. Manipulated to sort of represent these pair of eyes, which they, are attributing. I think it's, it's listed here. Sorry. I'll have to cheat and scroll down. let me, I'll come back to here. The exterior. yes. So the portrait of Isabella givens. and so, enslaved worker, but also then a teacher in Charlottesville. So, a fascinating sort of integration, I think, of, of the sort of Memorial aspect. the symbolic aspect of, of this know mixed with the technology and so

Jamie:

well mean, it's good that you bring that up. Cause that's, the Memorial spaces as a, as a design exercise, just, abstracting it here is they're really difficult to do. cause I think. and, and this one I think spoke to, there was a lot of community discussion, and community engagement with, in developing what. What is being memorialized here, who is being memorialized here? How is it being memorialized? what story are we trying to to explain? how, w how is it going to be rendered? what feelings are we trying to evoke with the space? all of those things from a Memorial standpoint are. and then it's, and then it's setting, like you said, like you showed that sort of initial image of it in the snow. and there's a, there's an exacting newness to the campus. there's, as a, as an architect or as a designer, there's, a formality. Yeah, campus geometry, many, many campuses across the United States, in their planning and campus planning. We're, we're influenced by Jefferson and UVA. and that sort of quad idea. So there there's a lot of, the design intent that is already present in this place. And then you add to that, this kind of concept of trying to memorialize 4,000 or almost 5,000 individuals and their stories that have never been told, in an object or in a place. And that is an incredibly, audacious task. and so I think, w you, you highlighting some of the technological aspects that they leaned into too. To accentuate, aspects of the design, I think is, is really unique to this Memorial that we don't necessarily see in other more, I can't think of another Memorial that tries to do this, in this particular way. and there's some, the thing that we were talking about, as we were sort of getting ready to do this conversation was. The thing that had struck me, in how all of the names, or descriptions, because some of them aren't, some of these people aren't named in the records, of the campus. Some people were only listed by their profession, or their tasks that they were attributed to. And how they were, they were counted. And so, but each one of those individual stories of memory is rendered as a mark, on the, on the internal ellipse of this, this circle. And when it rains, it really has a powerful effect. it's, it's, it's a bit humanizing as well, to, a stone surface. and, and there's, there's a pain and a sadness with seeing that. I think that's intentional, and difficult, and intentionally difficult, and, and really effective. so I, I, I wanted to see it in person. and you, you read these types of descriptions of what someone's processes and the things that they're after, and then to see it in real life, and experience it yourself. you can really come away with, Come away with a lot. It's not even sure. I have words to describe some of these things.

Kurt:

Yeah. I bet the, the being there in person was extremely moving and, and so I'm glad you got to go there one day. I would like to try and get there myself. The, since it says here, just to, to expand a bit on the memory marks, is it, signifies. That were lost, lost historical record. However, as they uncover names, they will add them to the wall. And so, yeah. So, so each mark of these, these sort of slashes in the stone represent an individual. And so some have names, some don't, some have w whatever information, as you mentioned, was known, like there a skillset or. task, a job that they were assigned to. and so that, that's also kind of an interesting aspect of Memorial is the ability to sort of evolve or expand the information within the Memorial. And the other thing I think about this, this one in particular is, and I think this image is, is really good at showing that, is that how a Memorial is not just. statue, but actually is, is more of a, a place that can, you can use as a public space, like a Plaza or a enclosure. So it's, it's occupiable versus a statuesque or a sort of monumental, right. So it's not just something to look at, but something like. Bring people together within

Jamie:

well, and that it's planned is that that's that's, I think that's the thing as architects and designers, oftentimes we try and plan all of those experiences and, and I think that that image you just had on the screen is, that's not playing. No, that's, that's people deciding how they're going to occupy that space and what's appropriate. and, and maybe what's appropriate then maybe changes over time. and, and that's okay, too. and so I think that that, that allows for people to, to engage with it and sort of make it their own. and sort of expand that story and that's, those are the things that I think, always give me pause as a designer is, there's, there's things that you imagine how people might use something, but there's also a re there, there has to be some humility in realizing that you don't. You don't know how something's going to be received and you don't know how something's going to be used. And, and sometimes in that, not knowing you get the best results.

Kurt:

Yeah. It reminds me actually of something. My very first studio instructor in first year told me is that you don't get to stand outside your building with a pamphlet that tells people how to use it. And that's a perfect, I think summary of, of, of how this, this in all, good works of architecture, evolve or take on its own sense of, of meaning and place. And, there's a lot of subtlety in the design. It may look simple, like a ring. Of stone, but w w and I'll, this is going to be my last point, because it's, it's such a simple, simple, simple looking structures, sculpture, but I mean, the more I look at it, the more it evolves into, or just exposes the, technical. Precision, which, how old are you in? if you've not familiar with their work, they do a variety of different project scales, but started out, I think doing a lot more installation work, but in a, not just temporary installation where, but things that are very well crafted, right. Almost like fabrication. If you, if you were, I mean, th the interesting thing kind of tying back to like, Evelyn's work with the practice innovation lab is like, kind of rethinking like what an architect is, is, and does, and how ruler Yoon kind of represent this expanded definition of, it's not just about designing something to get a permit. But following through with the craft of that object and how it is is completed and how it then engages with its site. So for example, you could see here, down here, the ring is at this sidewalk level and the bottom of the outer ring in this, this sort of ledge that becomes an inner. But the inner ring becomes as bench and the outer ring becomes this wall. And then somewhere between the, the great that this ground is sloping. Something is sloping down. So as the circle comes around, it's kind of going down into the ground and back up. So it's a very subtle like geometrical shift, even though, and with. Thing, I mean could go on and all the detail, but I hope, I don't know you, you were there. So I, I would imagine you felt the spatial. Relationship change as you moved around.

Jamie:

Well, and it's it's yeah, I mean, that's the thing, as I, as I think spaces like this, want to evoke a feeling and I, and I think that, we've, we've talked about it from just even buildings. kind of jumping out for a second is in a buildings and art of OIC feeling and emotion and. are connected or disconnected from a place and, or a story. And there's, there is some art and craft in executing things, in this sort of exacting way. like you described, I mean, that's the perfect example, your, your Aboriginal studio, prophet telling you, you're not going to get to stand outside here and explain your design to everybody who comes to, to, to visit it. this is that type of a space, I, it's a, it's a perfect. No perfect way to kind of capsulize it is it's, this would be completely ruined as, an object as a space, as a Memorial, as a place to, to yet be programmed, or a place that evolves if there was a placard, at the entrance that explained. it's unnecessary. it's, it's too much and there's, there's enough in it, for people to spend the time and discover things for themselves and, and inhabit this place. And I think that that's, that's part of it. that's sort of the, the, the fun, interesting aspect of architecture and design is sort of realizing that you have to let go a little bit. and in instances like this, where the conversation is difficult, you can have a really simple design that says so much. And I think that that was, like you say, how I experienced it. It, it is, it is a simple, straightforward object that can be read one way, but taking the time and inhabiting it and experiencing it and exploring it and thinking about it and sitting with it know, as a person. in this context of, over here is this building that we've studied in architecture school, and now I'm in this space adjacent to, that's in dialogue with it. how does that make me feel as a person? How does that make me feel as an architect, as a designer? and that's, that's, that's the power of place. so yeah, Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity for us to talk about this. And, and you always find a way to, to, to, to summarize it with something that's really super straightforward. And I always appreciate that.

Kurt:

Yeah, no, this is great. it's a little. A little challenging, sort of, oh, we never pull punches and episode 100, I guess shouldn't be any different. And so we don't, we're not afraid to at least get into the open up the dialogue or the conversation on, on a subject matter. But, so anyway, thanks. For sharing your sketches and for a hundred episodes and oh, we'll have to, have 200 episodes under our belt pretty soon,

Jamie:

soon enough, soon enough.