144 - Exploration of Creativity

Jamie: 0:32

show. Welcome to the show. We got the numbers right. We got the, the, the prompter on the bottom. This is like a, we're like a well oiled machine

Kurt Neiswender: 0:43

today. I'm on a, I'm on a heater, as they would say, on a heater.

Jamie: 0:50

Like, is that, are we doing the baseball subreddit right now?

Kurt Neiswender: 0:53

Is that, I thought that's more of a Vegas thing, like a Is it? Yeah, maybe. I thought

Jamie: 1:00

it was like, they do that for pitchers.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:02

The heater, well the heater is fastball. Right,

Jamie: 1:06

but I thought it was also sort of a reference to maybe not

Kurt Neiswender: 1:13

well, it could be I haven't I can't, you know, I can't honestly tell you the last time I watched any baseball, which, you know, they changed the rules, right? I did learn that last. What? The beginning of last season. I mean, this is American predominant. Well, actually, I shouldn't say that, you know, you know, we have a friend and joining us on, on the chat from, from South America. What, what, what,

Jamie: 1:38

what? You say it's predominantly, you say it's predominantly American. I'm like I'm Canadian. But

Kurt Neiswender: 1:43

you're North American. But it's not just, baseball is pretty popular. However, not as popular as the other sport, football,

Jamie: 1:54

soccer, soccer, football. Okay.

Kurt Neiswender: 1:57

You're, you're a big fan. Yeah,

Jamie: 2:00

well, yeah, I mean, you know, but I'm just going to say that is, I will say, you know, most Canadians do not, you know, they're pretty diplomatic, you know, by and large, it is a general, it's a gross generalization, but it's usually pretty accurate. Well,

Kurt Neiswender: 2:13

I mean, you're allowed to speak for the entire country.

Jamie: 2:17

I'm going to totally do that from Austin, Texas.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:20

Well, it's in the blood. Yeah,

Jamie: 2:21

but one thing that will like rile up Canadians is when there is sort of these American, you know, kind of generalizations about, well, it is North America, you know, it's all, you know, it's just kind of, you know, I mean, and they kind of lump, like lump everybody in. And sort of like, take the, take the continent as if it's the country and it's like, Hmm, is it really? No, it's not. So, just to be, just to be clear.

Kurt Neiswender: 2:54

Well, we lost a couple of watchers and listen, you know.

Jamie: 2:58

And all that? I thought it was, it was, we were going to get into like, you were going to show us the map on your hand again.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:05

I can't fit, I can't fit the entire world on. Only Michigan fits and it still takes two hands, but yeah, so anyway, you know, one thing let's, before we forget is we need to talk about coffee. Yes. We actually did forget in, in working on my edit. On the last one, we did forget to

Jamie: 3:30

talk about coffee. Well, I, I mean, I did, I mean, we did mention it, but we didn't mention what we were having because we just got kind of on a roll. We were pretty excited. I, I did, I brought my prop. Because I, I want to encourage you to, to try this one. I and give me your honest opinion. Is it local?

Kurt Neiswender: 3:51

Texas?

Jamie: 3:52

I don't, I don't think so. No, Iowa.

Kurt Neiswender: 3:58

Iowa? Iowa. Well, you know, the caucuses are next week. Oh, goodness. Not that I'm, not that I want to take this into the political.

Jamie: 4:09

No, but I think there's also going to be like a snowstorm, or there is a snowstorm,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:13

or whatever, so Yes, it's going to be zero degrees, and Yeah, anywho. Well, they better

Jamie: 4:18

be drinking some of this stuff, because this is Keep you awake. I, I, I'm just, I'm really, I, I'm kind of a quiet fan of this now. I'm just a pretty happy about it. Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 4:28

I, I will

Jamie: 4:31

Chocolate, blueberry, and honey notes. And, and I will say that, that it, it really does sort of strike me as more of a medium roast. And, but it's, there's a, there's a little bit of a tang to it, which I kind of like Is that the blueberry? I think it is, I think it's the blueberry. And, you know, not where like it's a citrus, you know, cause the citrus has, sometimes can go a little bit on the sharp side. And you get that sort of almost like that weird aftertaste, kind of a bitterness, you know, of it. But this is, this is nice. I, I'm, I'm, I'm particularly fond of it, so. It's the black and gold for those who are listening.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:15

Oh yeah. Yes. Thanks. Well, I'll, I'll have to keep an eye out and actually, so

Jamie: 5:22

and it's got this kind of cool label. Like, I don't think this is, I have had it before I did. Yeah. It's the crown. And so like I, I bought it once, enjoyed it, forgot about it. Yeah, okay. Needed to get something, saw it, and was like, Oh, yeah, that one was really good. And, but, what's funny is I, I will say, like, the crown, like, immediately made me think of Basquiat.

Kurt Neiswender: 5:51

Which is what I remember, I think we talked about previously. Right.

Jamie: 5:55

But then, like, I didn't show you on the side, so the side panel, like, I think that they maybe were thinking the same thing, because they tried to do some kind of weird graffiti thing. Yeah, yeah. It's not working. So, I think this, this, you know, not being judgy, coffee's great. They can work on the side panel so next time.

Kurt Neiswender: 6:16

Good point. Now well, I'll tell. So what I'm drinking is actually, I went back to the little local, how do you call it? Small grocer, right? Like your organic kind of, you know, the bulk food store that I've been to and got a pound of a dark roast and I got a little bag. This it's called Sputnik and it's from, it's a Chicago based roaster. So it's a little small batch, got a little bag of that eight ounce bag. And so, and it's kind of a medium roast. It's pretty mellow. It's very close to our. Our own coffee sketch podcast coffee. Okay. And so I got both. I got both. I was like, well, first, I can't buy just eight ounces of coffee because it's not going to last long enough. Right.

Jamie: 7:16

You might not get home. You might not get home. Like if you had a roaster, imagine if you had a roaster in the car, you could be like,

Kurt Neiswender: 7:23

well, You know, fun fact, sound effects, sound effect, the family that used to live next door, he actually has a little shed where he roast coffee, small but then they moved to Alaska. So fact is now not so fun, but although

Jamie: 7:44

the process, you're like fun fact from. History Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 7:51

Anyway so that's what I've got Now. Coffee drinkers tend to find other coffee drinkers. Do you agree? Yes. So there's another, as a, there's a new faculty on the design. So we are the College of Architecture and Design. So on the design side, there's a new faculty full-timer like me who moved in. Last semester, but you know, you know, we were just getting to know each other right and we're all busy So I didn't get to talk to him too much But then next to the coffee pot shows up a little one of those hot water Instant hot water tea kettles, right? You hit the button and it starts heating up and I was like, who's is that? And then I is that your is it is that yours and he's like, yeah, that's mine It's like I do pour over coffee. I don't I don't I don't really like the Keurig stuff, you know, and so

Jamie: 9:01

don't tell him about the gas stations. No, like, if you've made a new friend, don't tell him about the

Kurt Neiswender: 9:05

gas stations. I've evolved since then. However Justin is his name. And and we actually were talking this morning, and he had just made himself a cup of coffee that he grinds the beans at home, brings it to. Brings it to campus. It is his, I'm, I was more excited about his, you know, today than mine, just because the name is named, it's named lobster butter. So if you eat lobster, you know, you know, yeah, lobster butter is the. The good stuff found inside, you know, inside the shell next to the delicious lobster. Anywho, where did he say it was from? I think it was gosh, no, I think it was a Chicago based thing too, but I'll have to double check. Next time I see him. But anyway I think a little gift, little gift bag of coffee sketch coffee.

Jamie: 10:12

Oh, I thought you were going to say you were

Kurt Neiswender: 10:14

going to send me some lobster butter. Well, I have to find that. So then story B is, I did promise you Light Bright from Rootless, our friends in Flint. Yes. We'll have to hold on that, but I will promise, I will fulfill promise with

Jamie: 10:39

On the bet?

Kurt Neiswender: 10:40

From last February? Not the bet. Well, let's just call that Christmas and New Year's, all in the one. Okay. They are, they The rootless folks are going to start small batch, small batching. Ooh, what like one offs. That's fun. Which I, I, I heard the first, the first is coming out soon, which I believe, I don't remember. I'm not even going to tell you now, cause I can't remember. And I want to just leave it as a surprise. So to make up for my failings in the past, going to, this is the scouts, I don't know how many fingers. I wasn't one. Yeah, I didn't make it that far. Anyway, so that's exciting news from our friends at Rootless. Well, other exciting. Small,

Jamie: 11:37

small batches. Other exciting news from rootless and a transition to our continuing story from the green room about the interwebs rootless posted, you know, like, you know, we were talking a little bit about, like, why does somebody post that? Like, why do they make that statement online? Like, why do they try and start that thread of that conversation, but I have to say, whoever's managing the rootless account, like they hit a home run today with their one line, because I love when somebody gets a really good one liner in where it's not disparaging on anybody. It's just, it's just super clever and super timely, so not. To take anything away from Kurt's planning out his photographs for Instagram that he never ever posts. This would be the situation where, do you know, do you know what a Stanley Cup is?

Kurt Neiswender: 12:35

Well, are you talking about the actual Stanley Cup? Or this mug thing that people are getting into? Okay, so

Jamie: 12:44

I did get corrected last year. Because someone said, Oh, you know, they were telling me a story about some marketing thing that they were doing for their organization of folk and they were very excited that they had gotten some custom Stanley cups for people. And I was like, did you just say Stanley cups, like plural? Am I not hearing you right. They're like, well, I was hearing, yeah, well, no. And they were like, they're like, are you stupid? You know, they're like, don't you know what this is? And I was like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. And I like, and they really thought I was playing dumb. They, they thought I was just being completely ignorant. Now, so then fast forward to the holidays in this last couple weeks, and apparently people are, you know, all if they didn't know, like I didn't know. Like back in the day that I do. I did understand. I learned. But yeah, I'm a fast learner. Sometimes, you know, maybe, On it. So I knew at least I don't understand, but I knew you know, what this, this whole hubbub there's a term for you of this Stanley cup business this last week or two or so. And so rootless. You know,

Kurt Neiswender: 14:07

post. Did they get on it?

Jamie: 14:10

They're like, I'll tell you what kind of, you know, there's only one or something. Ah, gee, now I'm going to ruin it. Do I

Kurt Neiswender: 14:21

need to look it

Jamie: 14:22

up? I could totally look it up. Man, I want to get it right. I want to, I want to get this right. So and there it is. Oh, I

Kurt Neiswender: 14:35

got it. I prefer the Stan Lee cup, to be honest. Yes, or a stand. That's hilarious. Yes. Sorry. I I just, you got me super geeked. Fast,

Jamie: 14:50

fast draw for me. So for those keyboard

Kurt Neiswender: 14:53

down here with lights and everything. Yeah,

Jamie: 14:56

I know. I mean, you can't find the sound effect buttons, but

Kurt Neiswender: 15:00

No, no, we're going to get there this

Jamie: 15:02

year. So, so I would like a Stanley cup to be honest as well, not a Stanley cup. Unless we're talking about like, you know, my dad and the Stanley cup, which, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 15:19

hockey family, you know, Got to hear a lot of

Jamie: 15:23

good hockey stories at the holidays, by the way.

Kurt Neiswender: 15:24

If we can, oh, well, let's circle back. I just used the dirty, dirty word, dirty phrase of the business world. Let's circle back.

Jamie: 15:39

That's almost as dirty as when I was

Kurt Neiswender: 15:42

your age. Well, that's the academic world. So I've blown that. I've blown it all this week. I've got the academic phrase and the business. But the before. We talk about some great stories, you know, I was talking, let's do the sports.

Jamie: 16:01

Yeah, let's just, let's get them all in. Because, I mean, while people are going, Is this an architecture and art podcast about coffee? When does that come in? Sketches aren't

Kurt Neiswender: 16:11

worth coming, but the Yeah, we got to do the sports. Well, we got through the coffee bit, you know, we We got through the intro pretty quick here. So just got to fill the space, man. The okay. So sports world, we just finished, we wrapped up the college football bowl season. So over the past month, you know, four weeks, let's say, because it spans between December and January and all this. Timeline, but, but did you

Jamie: 16:46

see the, did you see the pop tart bowl

Kurt Neiswender: 16:49

pop tart? I saw the cheese it

Jamie: 16:51

bowl. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Kurt Neiswender: 16:54

Well, this is part of what I was you just look at

Jamie: 16:57

you just look that up and enjoy enjoy all that video content Did

Kurt Neiswender: 17:01

you see the the duke's mayonnaise bowl? Oh, yeah that instead of getting you know, the tradition of dunking your coach with the Gatorade jug they now Staged this dunk, you know, dumping of mayonnaise on your coach, which, anyway, the, but I, I did wound up wind up seeing that. I didn't want to talk about that now. As much as I love mayonnaise, especially on my turkey after Thanksgiving, what?

Jamie: 17:38

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's only

Kurt Neiswender: 17:42

one and mayonnaise is the

Jamie: 17:44

snack. No, no, no, no, it's not. No, the only thing that you put on cold turkey as a snack is cranberry

Kurt Neiswender: 17:52

sauce. Well, I mean, I'm okay with that, but I mean, man.

Jamie: 17:56

Fresh cranberry sauce is arguably the easiest thing to make in the kitchen. We need That is one of the tastiest things, and it's

Kurt Neiswender: 18:08

relatively good for you audience to chime in. No. Feel free to email

Jamie: 18:12

Jamie at I do want to hear about your mayonnaise and turkey stories. That just sounds

Kurt Neiswender: 18:20

Well, anyway, as much as, so that's not why I got into this tangent. The point circle, you know, tying in, circling back, tying into the Stanley cup was, is a discussion that I had with family and friends about. Significant bowl game trophies, right? You know, so college football has Well, but I didn't see that one. Oh, okay. But to me

Jamie: 18:51

They have slots in the top of the football for pop tarts to go in.

Kurt Neiswender: 18:55

Ha ha ha! Well, you know, if it sticks, right? The thing is, it has to last longer than one season. This is true. Continues to, so like the Orange Bowl,

Jamie: 19:07

right. They also ate, they also ate the live Ma Mascott, did I tell you that? a aft. So at the end of the game, you know when like pop they're gonna give them was Poptart. It was a Poptart. It was a Poptart, and the Poptart was a pop. It was a lit, they were a little bit. What's the word? Fire, they were fire the whole time. Like they were just like, it was crazy. And then they, they got like, they, they, they put the pop tart in the top of the toaster, like box that was about the size of like, Ooh, like a van rolled it out on the middle of the field. Pop tart went down, waved goodbye to everybody and then came out the side and then. The winning team just, you know, devoured it.

Kurt Neiswender: 19:55

I gotta re Okay, I rule. I Alright, alright, alright. See, that's way better than the mayonnaise thing.

Jamie: 20:01

But I would totally agree with you, though. It, like, there was I mean, there was like real tears watching some of this stuff where you're just like, this is just like, this is too awesome and this is, this is so, this is so insane. And but, but I think you're right though. Like, did they do too much the first year? To, you know, have they upped the expectations of Pop Tart Bowl year two. You don't want that, you don't want that sophomore slump. I mean, you just, you just don't want it. So,

Kurt Neiswender: 20:33

which is establishing a tradition, which is kind of the point that I was trying to make, right. Is certain levels of consistency, memorable consistency. So, you know, the old AP trophy associated press trophy was quite attractive, right? Cause it was this crystal football perched on top of. This big, you know, walnut stained wooden plinth. I mean, it had a nice effect to it. And then this crystal, you know, you could pick it up off of the thing. The orange bowl, right? Is a nice glass bowl and they fill it with oranges. It's kind of cool. And, and then there's a lot of other, you know, like say like the rivalry trophies and things like that, but more, more so the bowl game. So then. So, now, now we don't really have as much tradition, you know, the national championship trophy to me is a little boring because it's this sort of extrusion and it's a football American football. Is it come off the base pops off the base and like, they can lift it up and stuff, but, you know. And so anyway, so then it always comes back to, I mean, I think the consensus amongst me and the family here in Michigan is Stanley Cup is the best trophy. Of all sports ever because and as an from the architects standpoint, it's, it's, it's, it's a Mary of form and function, right? Because you can scroll. They will scrawl engrave all the names of all the players of the winning team. And then when they run out of room, they just add another ring and it just gets. Even bigger and more substantial. How can you, that is fantastic. Like the perfect marriage of form and function.

Jamie: 22:41

It is. It's, and it's a beautiful trophy. It does get abused by the winning team. Cause each player gets, you know, one day with it. Yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 22:49

but that's another tradition too, but

Jamie: 22:52

you know, the, the, the, you know, there needs to be like, there's probably is a book about that. I mean, all the crazy things that that trophy has seen, could you imagine it from the trophies perspective? Like written, like fiction, like written from the trophies perspective of like all the things that it's seen in its life. That'd be like a tell all book. But

Kurt Neiswender: 23:11

when it got bored because it was in the Detroit Red Wings trophy case for so long,

Jamie: 23:16

so long, so many years, so many years. But no, I, I, it, the, the rings that Kurt's talking about though. It is, it is, it's, it's, it is pretty remarkable. I mean, and all of those when they do come off, you know, over time, as they get filled up they put them in the national hockey hall of fame. Yeah.

Kurt Neiswender: 23:35

And the only trophy that you, each player will actually get recognized versus the team name and, you know, then there's other MVP trophies and things like that, but. Yeah, I think that's cool, too. Every person participating in that team's year, you know, his name will get applied to it. Yeah, it's, it's,

Jamie: 24:00

you know, it is, it's, it's a unique, it's a unique trophy. I don't think there isn't like another one like it in sport. And and, and the Hockey Hall of Fame is, is quite a fun experience if you get the chance to go and see it. Where is it based?

Kurt Neiswender: 24:14

Toronto. I, you know, Danielle and I have Toronto on the the to do list. We haven't yet been, we only have flown through Toronto, never actually spent time there. So I want to, it's on the list.

Jamie: 24:32

Yeah, I, I I, I took. And my folks there. And it was fun. I mean, it's got, you know, it's got the typical kind of interactive exhibits, but then also sort of, you know, and the memorabilia you know, but it's you know, it's, it's a, it's a sport that's been around for, you know, You know, a really long time and and the trophy is pretty amazing. And so all that, all those displays, it's, it's totally worth the visit.

Kurt Neiswender: 24:56

So, so thanks for the total tangent sports tangent that we often probably find ourselves, but, you know, we, so. Again, we just finished bowl season and Michigan came out on top, 15 and 0 national champions. They're like, where are they on the map? Ann Arbor would be, let's see, Flint's here. So then Ann Arbor is like right here.

Jamie: 25:22

Okay. For the

Kurt Neiswender: 25:25

visual learners. And for those, you know, that have their own opinion. You know, they can, I mean, I'm approximating for the camera, but I did watch it, you know, here in Flint, the capital theater, which is a historic landmark in the city, Flint designed by John Everson in the late 20s. Art Deco slash thematic or atmospheric he was known for atmospheric design. They hosted a watch party for the nation on Monday night. So me and a neighbor who's a alum from U of M Flint we got tickets, which were free, which is cool. It was free tickets. Just had to sign up and we watched the game on the big screen that they had. And, you know, I mean, it's cool. It was It's just fun, you know, Michigan, you know, I mean, you know, me, I mean, I talk about USC so much, everybody's probably tired of it. So I had to park it for a day and Jamie's the Aggie. I had to park it all for a day to root for Michigan, which was fun. It was fun because it's excited. You know, now I live here, you know, there's, there's a great atmosphere around. You know, Michigan fans and things like that. So, and the lions are in the playoffs too. So, I mean, can we go two for two in the state of Michigan or no,

Jamie: 26:56

they're going to meet, they're going to meet my

Kurt Neiswender: 26:58

Nyers. So, well, they have to meet Matt Stafford, their former quarterback. Excuse me. That's just going

Jamie: 27:06

to be fun to watch.

Kurt Neiswender: 27:07

Anyway, we should probably segue back into. The main topic, which is some, some sketches, and actually we, we didn't actually talk about a particular sketch to talk about. So this is

Jamie: 27:26

where Kurt's, Kurt's curation skills come into

Kurt Neiswender: 27:29

play, but you have, you have a few from this week. That are quite beautiful, and going to post them right now. And I don't, you know, given the time can keep this brief and save some for for future conversation. But I think I will choose if you let me this week.

Jamie: 27:58

Well, I, I will absolutely, no, I was going to absolutely let you pick, but I was just going to say the one thing that knowing we'd be pulling, pulling them all up is that the, the last three from the last couple of days I think all. And, and I don't, I don't find myself thinking this until sometimes when I'm getting reflective about my sketches is that they're all completely different, like subject matter, style, technique you know, and I, I have moments like this where like, you know, each day is drastically different. They don't come along a whole lot, or we haven't talked about them on the podcast. All that, that often when that occurs, but I just, it just sort of struck me and myself you know, for, for this episode

Kurt Neiswender: 28:48

where they, yeah, you know, actually, this is a good point and were, were these in particular three days in a row or were they just sort of spaced out? Oh, no, these are 3 days in a row. Yeah. So being 3 days in a row is quite interesting. So actually. Given that I wanted to, I'm going to, I'm going to pick executive decision here to the, the, the farthest to the right, which is actually the most recent there's chronologically. I think the other 2 came 1st. But the reason I want to skip to skip ahead a little bit is is the story or the segue I was mentioning earlier about class today with my students. So I opened up class this morning and I said, I handed out because I wanted, I didn't want any friction and I handed out blank sheets of. 8 and a half by 11 paper and I, I said, we're, you know, we're going to sketch and Mike, this class is acoustics, electrical and illumination lecture format. So it's not a design studio. The studio is in the afternoon this morning. It's the other, you know, other things they still need to know, right. In order to become architects not necessarily known for sketching and design exercises, more, more known for listening to Kurt Blather on for hours and hours and hours about. But anyway, I handed out, I'm trying to change things up and some, some students may actually be listening. But I'm trying to mix it up a little bit and, and also tap into what we talk about here is, is, you know, use the hand. I coordination, you know, communication, right? Use the sketch as a communication tool. So, today, being the 1st week of class, I only asked for them to pick out a building. Of a favorite building or aspect of a building, like, for me, I, I, I love wall sections and thinking through detail in section like that. And then so for so I said, well, you know, could be could be a wall section could be a footing detail could be a window, you know, could be and it could be anything, you know, it could be a little snippet. Or like a Exxon or a perspective of a building that you like, that you wish you knew more about. And, and I, and as I, so I have to like, you know, I'm required to like, take attendance, do those things. So I was like, here, handing out the paper and I'm like, you do that and I'll take attendance and then, you know, 10 minutes and then make sure before you leave, you know, drop it on the desk in the front of class. And, and they all obliged without, without pain. And I feel I'll, I'll, I didn't ask for the feedback yet, but I'll try and touch base with them next class. I feel like it created. A little bit more of a engagement for the session, because, you know, instead of passively sitting in class, you know, they, they arrived 1st thing in the morning 1st class of the day. And and then we're, we're asked I didn't force them. You know, I asked them to, like, you know, use the tools that we will that we use in practice to communicate with our clients and contractors and. Engineers, you know, consultants and all that stuff, because you won't always have your computer in front of you. So that was the point. And so your sketch to, to, to circle back, but to tie it back into your sketch and the sketches that, you know, that you're producing, that I'm grateful for every week reminds me of, of some of the sketches I saw today, which begun, you know, because I, I, I gave him about 10 to 15 minutes and then I started, you know, they, they were allowed to continue with them, but I started. Presenting the material class, so they might have parked it. You know, exploring. There are so a lot of great sketches. I still have to look through through the whole stack, but a lot of interesting explorations of. Even like your sketch multiple views, which I was super impressed with thinking through 2d 3d plan section elevation of particular design elements. And so I, I'm, I'm extremely proud and impressed and not of myself of my students, you know, production and, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're flexibility and sort of meeting me in this, this sort of new thing. Cause I. Yeah. I've actually taught most of these students last semester in another lecture class and in a design studio. So I know a lot of them very well and, you know, they probably got used to, like, oh, Kurt's going to do this or that, you know, and then I try and throw him a little

Jamie: 34:17

curveball willingness to jump in, you know, in, in those kinds of settings when you sort of, you know, create a prompt, you know, in a sense where you're asking them to step outside their comfort zone, but at the same time, you know, providing them a net, you know, where it's, you know, you're, you're not necessarily trying to, you know, walk them out on the plank and push them off. You know, defend for themselves into something that's super scary and you know, and, and, and potentially doing something that they're, they're not necessarily comfortable with, you know, with their skill set or you know, whatever is going on kind of idea. But I think that that's the whole thing is once somebody realizes, you know, no, you're being genuine, you're being honest, you know, this is, this is an opportunity for exploration of material and opportunity. Then, yeah, if they kind of lean into it and and do it you know, they themselves are probably surprised by the results that they came up with. You know, because they weren't expecting to do it when they walked into that classroom. And that's that's sort of the beauty of it. You know, I've told you about the minute you said, I passed out all this paper, I got all excited. I mean, I was just I could imagine. You know, the energy in the room, you know, a little nervous energy to because when I, you know, I've told you about the times that I've done my, my coffee sketch walking tour at our Texas state architecture and, you know, part of it there is there. I'm, I'm, you know, these are other architects, you know, they're there for a whole conference. And, you know, fortunately, it's at the very, you know, it's always at the very beginning of the conference. So it's a nice way to kind of get started. But, Even in that moment, you've got folks there who, you know, varying skill levels and varying levels of confidence with their own drawing abilities and some maybe just haven't done in a long time, but they're, they've signed up, you know, they're there because they want to do it, but even in, even in the fact that they're there, you also kind of want to take them out of their comfort zone just a little bit. And it, and it's not, you know, to be, you know, mischievous. It's, it's more about when you, when you put somebody in that kind of a situation and, and say, no, no, no, I really want you to trust yourself to try and do this. And I'm going to give you some tools and some parameters that you weren't necessarily expecting. So, you know, acknowledging it, but, you know, but kind of still creating an environment where they, they're, they're comfortable enough to do it. At the end of it, they're usually very surprised by the results and, and usually very positive. And so, you know, what I would do is I would give them all like, you know, a Conte crayon or something like that. So, it'd be something like this. And, and they would be like, wait a minute, I want to use my favorite, you know, pencil and it's like, we'll get to that, you know, you're still going to do all that, but I want you to do this because I want everybody to feel the same kind of, you know, initial you know, you know, nervous energy, that trepidation, but, you know, at the same time, excitement about, you know, what are the results of this going to be, you know, how crazy is this guy, you know,

Kurt Neiswender: 37:26

yeah, exactly. And, and yeah, we'd have a brief little conversation about tool. You know, pen pencil favorite implement things like that. Maybe I will continue. This is the hint if anyone's listening of my students, you know, that there could be a challenge in the future of using 1 over the other or things like. Only in contour line, don't lift your pencil, you know, things like that or if Kurt shows

Jamie: 37:56

up with a box of vine charcoal, you know, because it's the least expensive and, you know, you can break it very easily and hand it out to a bunch of people.

Kurt Neiswender: 38:06

Yeah, so the other thing too, which reminded me as you were talking is our, our fantastic conversation with our friend, Steven Parker, who runs those drawn out. Health, health, mental health care related focus groups with architects and clients or, you know, users building, you know, occupants, things like that. So not always architects, but say, administrative staff, you know, people are not comfortable. Or not trained in sketching, but using that language of the sketch and and that's kind of also where I, as I, I'm visually sort of tapping into some of the sketches I saw today and just seeing the outcomes or the results of some of the sketches and thinking about our conversation with Steven and how that. Created a playing field for a lack of a better term to, to create that there's a bit of the nervous energy, like you mentioned that comes to it, but that it's relatively level. Right? It's not about right or wrong, better or worse, or any kind of criticism of, of the outcome, but it's about the act, the production, the, the, the process of using, you know, the, Putting something on paper and generating something at the end of the day. So,

Jamie: 39:43

and, and, and, and in that process, you know, and in that process, there's also the check in, you know, it's, it's the, it's, it's the sharing of it, which we've talked so much about on this podcast is, you know, so many of us, you know, myself included, you know, would, you know, draw on our sketchbooks and not show anybody. And that was always sort of the remark that I would get from people who would go to my workshop. Was this is really great. I haven't really shared my drawings and my sketches with other colleagues in so long. I haven't probably done it since school, you know, when I was forced to do it. And and so, you know, and that and they realized that when you know, I'm dropping sketchbooks on the ground or my own or flipping mine around so halfway through a drawing just to explain something. It's, it's about process, like you say, and it's, you know, in a product, we all can get to a product, you know, and we can all, you know, be judgy and whatever, you know, at that end, but the creative act and sort of building up the spirit of that involves what you did with your students today. And what we're talking about with my sketch here. I mean, I don't know if you caught the hashtags on this one, but you know, I, I referred to this one as scribbles,

Kurt Neiswender: 41:03

right? And also what was the other hashtag? What's that first blush? Yeah, yeah, yeah. First blush, which is, which is a great, I think that I liked that. I, I did, I did notice that I forgot exactly what it said, but it is, that's why it, it helped me tie in all, you know, all of what I did today to subliminally. Or, or behind, you know, cause I didn't know you were creating this at the same time, but yeah, the, the idea of that first blush being a, a quick sketch to generate an idea, I imagine, you know, whatever you're thinking through, you know, may, may or may not result in the final product, but it generates a framework or something to start

Jamie: 41:53

from. Well, and it's also one, you know, in, in this particular drawings case, and I'll just, I'll leave it here for, for my description of it. And it's maybe something for you to, to think about as you move your exercise forward, you know, or re envision it for a future. You know, class session as you know, if, if one were to look at this sketch, would you think that I drew any part of it first, sort of a question to you? Do you think that I, do you think there's a drawing? Cause folks who can't see the sketch, there's, there's a couple of different points of view, like Kurt was describing, sort of seeing it in section, seeing it in plan for some detail elements, but also perspective all in one, one sheet in a very small sketchbook. So, well,

Kurt Neiswender: 42:43

if it were me, it probably would be the section because I tend to think about the Z axis or the vertical, right? And how things stack. And, and I, I mean, I, I don't know. So that's, I'm going to make that guess only in the framework of me. Right, not necessarily in the framework of gene.

Jamie: 43:06

So what if I told you that it, it started as a quick perspective to try and get ground and ceiling and established space. But that was only a framework. There was no sort of detail in that. And then, quickly, the lines from that initial kind of framework, I brought some of them down and started working through, like you say, the section. Like, okay, is this ceiling that you're seeing in the perspective, is it flat or relatively flat? Or is it a little bit more canted? The perspective can be deceiving. Because it is sort of a, of a real forced two point perspective. But the. You know, section sort of reveals a little bit more about the architecture and sort of where my head's at, but immediately at that point, then I start to think about carving and this sort of idea of in section sort of carving the ground plane and, and realizing that this building is sitting or this pavilion is sort of sitting nestled within. You know, a floor plan that maybe itself is changing on the interior and then maybe reacting to the exterior. And so that sort of brought me to a plan where I had to start to figure out what are the adjacencies of some of these spaces. And then at that point, I'm also moving back up and sort of adjusting the perspective and sort of figuring out pieces of it, both in perspective, thinking about inhabiting that space and then also trying to work it out and plan at the same time. And then there's also the sort of peel away where I'm kind of trying to think through like a funny detail that sort of emerged through these other drawings.

Kurt Neiswender: 44:59

Yeah, I could see that the haptic or the sort of relationship to the human scale. But yeah, no, I, I, I, I, I, I could totally see. I mean, I probably knew that. In the back of my mind that that's how Jamie develops, but yeah, no, I, I think that's a great example or explanation of this sketch in particular as diagnostic tool or some sort of generating idea, generating workflow and the end result of just a sketch is not something that. Can be handed to a contractor for construction, but it will lead to, you know, the placement of certain geometries materials, you know, space creating things. And yeah, that's exactly. And also the, how things sort of meet the ground plane is a good 1 that you mentioned is you know, grounds really never flat flat. Right there's always some amount of slope or tapering and how do you sort of, it could be minimal, you know, 6 inches to a foot in a lot of cases, but that's still, you know, a significant amount of. If you were, you know, physically walking, right, you can't just ignore 12, 6 inches or 12 inches of vertical rise. Right? So

Jamie: 46:33

no, I mean, from an accessibility point of view, I mean, you know, that's, that's part of our profession, you know, I mean, that's, that's, it becomes innate, hopefully, you know, where we're trying to create environments for everybody, you know, kind of a universal access and universal design kind of mode. But like you say, you know, the terrain. Yeah. Yeah. Also should influence the architecture should influence the design in a very kind of. Positive way. I, I would say it, it reminds me and sort of a quote that I would leave my commentary on is from Glenn Murka. You know, he likes to design buildings that sit lightly on the land.

Kurt Neiswender: 47:13

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a fantastic approach. And, and reference point because some people might also be the opposite. I like my buildings to smash into the landscape or something.

Jamie: 47:30

I mean, yeah, this isn't this isn't yeah. This isn't our dystopian episode. But yeah,

Kurt Neiswender: 47:35

well, yeah. So maybe I'm taking the hint that we have, have tied this into a pretty bow and can head into the the closing. But yeah, no, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for the sketch. As, as I don't want to, I don't want you to rethink that. I assume they're going to show up. I never assume. However, I'm always appreciative of the exploration and it'll be fun if we can save the other two. For, you know the next episode and beyond. Given that, you know, going back to the original explanation of how different they, the three r over the cr span of three days, and and it could be something that I could, sorry, now I'm getting, I've gotten entangled in my own. Headphone cord, the yes, I do. Well, 1 thing to recap is I will, I got to sort of sort of digest the sketches that my students made because I started to see some themes even quickly this morning or not themes, but say. Commonalities of things, which are fantastic, just on a, in a subliminal or a sort of 1st blush of its own. And then, and then I want to like, kind of celebrate them to a little bit. So there's going to that's why I gave them the paper. You know, and I, I sort of created a bit of a, a framework or format to it without being too rigorous. Anyway, so I, I, I, I, I want to maybe, maybe this would be fun, at least for this course of the semester is like, in tandem with some of the sketches that you're creating is that they could sort of feed off of each other as a, as a thought experiment with the process itself, right? Some things that we, we, we may have. I don't, I'm not going to, it's not negative, but, you know, we may have sort of taken for granted over the course of 5 years now into 6 years, like some bits of conversation about the process or the technical aspects. Right? And maybe it'll be not, not that it has to be anything that it shouldn't, but yeah, anyway. I think it just, it, it sort of, to me it doves dovetails the enjoyment I have for, for the podcast and this aspect of teaching are starting to maybe come together a little bit tighter. Right. Well, we've

Jamie: 50:20

sharing information. We've always said that, you know, we've, we've, we approached this as sort of. Folks who like to share to, you know, you know, it's, it is about sharing that passion and experience. And I think that that's something that we haven't lost. But finding new ways to do it. You know, maybe there was a method to Kurt's madness. And yeah, this was, this one was a fun one. Thanks. Thanks.