128 - Frank Lloyd Wright and Lous Kahn

Kurt: 0:33

Oh, hey, Jamie. Whoops. Let me hide that for a sec.

Jamie: 0:38

How's it going? Good. Good. Always a good start to the episode when we're giggling and, you know, technical mishaps and abbreviations for things that we can't say on air. So yeah, we're doing

Kurt: 0:51

downtown, downtown Flint.

Jamie: 0:53

Yeah. Downtown.

Kurt: 0:59

So I've got, I've got a bunch of swag, but some, some of which we're, we're, we say for the green room and then others I can, I can share, but,

Jamie: 1:12

That show before the show folks, you know, for those who are listening on a podcast, you know, there, there is a show before the show. Yes, we actually do a lot of this live, if you can believe it. Like, I wouldn't know why you wouldn't think we're doing it live, because clearly we do not have a script. as we learned from our friends, Evan and Cormac, that, you know, there is really no need for a script. They've been doing this a lot longer than us. so, shout out to them again for having us on. this is 1. 28. The episode right before this, a little bit different, Kurt gives it a great introduction, but it is a crossover episode. so their 300th episode and our 127th.

Kurt: 1:57

Yeah, and it was, it was generous of Evan and Cormac to allow us to co produce. Co post upload. I don't know. We, we are one 27 is, yeah, the same recording. And it was nice that we were allowed to share. Check

Jamie: 2:15

a super group. It's like a super group, dude. You know, it's like, it's like, you know, I know that you have your metal moments, you know, it's, it's like when, yeah, exactly. And it's like when, what's the one super group is it, they might be vultures. Is that right? Is that what I'm

Kurt: 2:33

saying? are you thinking of the Eagles of Death Metal?

Jamie: 2:37

No! No! I'm gonna, I'm gonna find this, and you're gonna be like, and you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like,

Kurt: 2:45

Oh, oh, oh, wait a minute! If we could compare it to... When ACDC lead singer went deaf and Axl Rose jumped right in and finished their concert or their tour. And I happened to be at that tour stop in Detroit where Axl Rose sang for ACDC. And it, I think it went very well.

Jamie: 3:11

That's pretty good. Yeah, that's, this is not a story I've heard before. And that's not, and it's in my. In my aging brain, it's not they might be vultures, it's them crooked vultures. Grammar. Grammar, please. It's like a grammar thing, but it sounds way cooler.

Kurt: 3:29

So who's in that? I'm not familiar with that.

Jamie: 3:32

Okay, so, like, and I did, I have seen them. Like, and this was when Foo Fighters, were at ACL. so you had Foo Fighters headlining one of the, they were one of the headliners for ACL several years ago. but then on a side stage, like earlier in the day, Dave Grohl. Like in his side project, super group, them crooked vultures. Oh, back on drums. So like he was, he was the drone in, in,

Kurt: 4:07

yeah. Yeah. That's cool. You know, Dave girl also did a thing called pro bot, which would feature, lead singers or sometimes, you know, main components of other bands, metal bands, well, maybe not all metal, but you know, and then, and then the food fighters and, and it was called pro bot, which. He's basically just the creator of super groups, I

Jamie: 4:36

guess. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is like Queens, the Stone Age and Led Zeppelin and Foo Fighters, like,

Kurt: 4:43

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Them cricket. I'm going to have to look that up. I, I, you know, we, we did just acquire a premium Spotify,

Jamie: 4:52

subscription. So yeah, worth, worth a, worth a jumping back in time. I don't know. I don't know what. I think it was just sort of, you know, your, your, you know, mention of, you know, different architects and Oh, right. And then multiple podcasts and us getting

Kurt: 5:16

the Oh, well, our friends over Yeah. To speak. Yeah. Just

Jamie: 5:20

sort of, it just sort of just kind of hit me. It was like, it's like a team up, you know? It's like, you know.

Kurt: 5:27

Yeah. It was good. More heads. All right, like two heads are better than one.

Jamie: 5:33

I think you just took it down a notch. I was like up on like team ups and super groups and then you're like, Hmm, two heads are better

Kurt: 5:40

than one. Thanks, buddy. Okay. Okay. Well, all right. All right.

Jamie: 5:49

Got

Kurt: 5:49

it. Yeah. Well, thanks for, I liked your

Jamie: 5:53

story better about. You know, shows in L. A.,

Kurt: 5:58

you just didn't know. That was actually, that was ACDC concert.

Jamie: 6:03

Oh, I thought you said L. A. Didn't you say

Kurt: 6:05

L. A. upon the point? No, I, I said Detroit. Okay. But, yeah. Well, it was their leg of, the, you know, through the, the Detroit, well, their, whatever. Yeah. It was great. It was just great. Axl Rose, you know? Yeah. Which I had never seen Guns N Roses live, so it's kind of both.

Jamie: 6:23

Yeah, see, I do have you there, because I was one of those, like, pain, painful people, or not pained, pained people, who suffered through the Use Your Illusion 1 and 2 tour, where that was, that was the point where GNR, like, they would just not, like, they're like, That time on the schedule, that's just a suggestion.

Kurt: 6:50

I, I, I've, I thankfully I've never been to a concert where we were, what do you call it? second class, or, you know, subject to the whims of, of the lead act. Yeah. I, I don't think I would, I don't, I probably wouldn't wear that well, especially not. These days, right? When you go to a concert and a beer is like 15 for

Jamie: 7:18

one beer. Yeah, that's, that makes, that makes it hard. Yeah.

Kurt: 7:22

Any who, Oh, you know, one other, how about, let me, what about audio slave? Does that meet? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I redeemed myself. Yeah.

Jamie: 7:35

Well, and, oh, and oh, oh, oh, oh, man, it just went away from

Kurt: 7:38

me. Oh, you're talking about the other one with Chuck D. Yes, dammit, no, now you got the answer, who's watching, somebody tell us the answer. I

Jamie: 7:48

mean you have Cypress Hill. Chuck D, Rage Against the Machine.

Kurt: 7:55

I went to, I actually saw them in Detroit too. That was awesome. What? Yeah, I got a ticket to that show. No. When they went on tour. And now I can't remember the name, but that was a super, that was awesome.

Jamie: 8:12

Prophets of Rage. Prophets of

Kurt: 8:14

Rage. Good one. Nobody helped, nobody chimed in, but well. Chuck D,

Jamie: 8:19

Chuck D, Quite the Sketcher. By the way, if you, if you, you know, if you follow Chuck on, on the socials, you will definitely get a peek inside his sketchbook. and he is incredibly prolific.

Kurt: 8:33

Yeah. Yeah. And

Jamie: 8:38

I used to call him Chuck, like I know him. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like, what

Kurt: 8:41

the hell? Oh, I think he's, I think he, he's a fan of the podcast that, you know, Cypress Hill just did a tiny desk concert.

Jamie: 8:52

I saw that. I saw that. It was so good. It was so good.

Kurt: 8:57

Yes. I love the stories and the, and the actually the, the comments cause it was, you know, it streams on YouTube. And, and so someone asked if, Sendog's or, you know, Sendog's hat was the same hat from original recording dives and the, and the NPR, you know, NPR being a reputable media source fact checked the question and, and confirmed that it is the same hat all those years later. How cool is

Jamie: 9:36

that? I like how you're like a reputable.

Kurt: 9:41

Well, I want to be polite and, but not, I don't want to get into the weeds.

Jamie: 9:47

No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. no pun, no puns there at all, you know, with Cypress Hill. So

Kurt: 9:53

yeah. One more tiny, tiny desk. We got into this music. tangent from the get go, but, juvenile also did a tiny. Oh yeah.

Jamie: 10:04

He was before. Yeah. For yeah. And that, that, that one

Kurt: 10:09

is even better. And he brought in, supporting trumpets and horns and backup singers. And, and they, and they didn't censor any words, which was a special occasion because, you know, it is tiny desk, but it was, it came off. Oh, that was cool. I'm really starting to, and I appreciate, you know, anyway, I'm going way off on the tangent, but I was very appreciative of. How they, they framed, you know, through black history month and they recorded, you know, a lot of influential, you know, you know, black history or black, well, you know, black recording artists or, or the same minorities because, you know, you got the, the Latin X in there too with Cypress Hill.

Jamie: 11:02

So have you seen Wu Tang?

Kurt: 11:05

Tiny desk. Oh, yeah, but that one's that one's a little older, isn't it?

Jamie: 11:09

Yeah, it's way older. But yeah, like

Kurt: 11:11

like classic Well, they have odb's son. I I mean if it's wu tang, i'm watching it

Jamie: 11:19

You're like if it's wu tang i'm watching it so what are

Kurt: 11:23

you talking about I watched the TV show. Have you seen the TV show? No, I've not. I, I,

Jamie: 11:30

I don't know how, I don't know how you consume as much streaming as you do, but that's okay. Please

Kurt: 11:36

don't tell Danielle because she's, she's with you on that one. These are made to be used. It's, it's,

Jamie: 11:47

it's where Kurt disappears to at night. It's just like, I have so many

Kurt: 11:51

shows I must watch. Right. Yeah. You know, I mean the, the, You know, shout out to the writers and actors who are on strike because it's, you know, it's gonna be some dark times in the near future and that's, and that's not speaking personally. I mean, you know, they're going through it. Yeah,

Jamie: 12:15

yeah, but it's creative, but it's creatives like, and we had, like we said, we had, you know, circling back to the beginning of this, we had a great conversation with Evan and Cormac that is continuing about the four of us have kind of a, a conversation thread that just continues where we're talking about. Being a creative and, you know, what that means and where those influences come from. And so if nothing else, that's been a treat as well. but yeah, for all the creatives out there who are, trying to, you know, fight for what they deserve, then that's, you know, more power to them.

Kurt: 12:55

And I'm with you, you know, having lived part of my life in LA, I know a few of these. People in, in the guilds and, you know, I'm with you cause it ain't, it ain't easy. And I, I would say, I'm sure Jamie is also, so coffee sketch podcast is supportive

Jamie: 13:18

of our creatives. Well, so episode one 28, buddy, here it is.

Kurt: 13:28

Yeah, here we are. And,

Jamie: 13:29

We're just going to start celebrating like, where's that button? It's like the, we were talking about like the horn. I need that, you know,

Kurt: 13:38

like one of these, you know, maybe if we make a little money on some merch, like this t shirt or mugs, pop,

Jamie: 13:47

pop, really like the mug. He, he did. He, he was, he's pretty tickled by it. my mom had no idea. She's like, what is that?

Kurt: 13:58

Well,

Jamie: 13:58

you know, it kind of looks like one of Jamie's drawings. Is that what it is? It's like, thanks mom.

Kurt: 14:06

Thanks. Yep. Well, at least at least she, picked up on some stylistic cues. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well,

Jamie: 14:16

no, I didn't share,

Kurt: 14:19

the, well, I was talking, so our, our friends over at Archie Marathon, were in town stateside. And so we were in Chicago last week, or I drove over to Chicago to become chauffeur to Kevin and Andrew, who came in from Australia. Well, by way of Spain and Portugal.

Jamie: 14:41

So this is like, you're, you're, this is like, you're driving Mr. Leapskin moment. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Keep going. Keep going. I'm right

Kurt: 14:49

there with you. So, so we, we, we, you know, we, you know, talking about the podcast a little bit and talking about their YouTube channel. If you're, if you're not a, if you're not subscribed, you should check it out. but I showed them your sketch, you know, the logo sketch and, and how we, we somehow got in a conversation about Carlos Scarpa and, and, and, You know, influences and things like that and, and they could, they could pick up the, the, the Castelvecchio, you know, references and hints in our logo and, you know, I'm, you know, Jamie drew the logo, I might've said, you know. Here's some ideas on, it's called the coffee sketch. And then, so I, I'm a super fan of the logo. And so I gladly, you know, I wore this t shirt, you know, it was like, you know, find me wearing this t shirt. But anyway, it's just the fun part is like my, I guess my point being aside from meeting up with these guys. Go and check out Johnson Wax Building in Racine, Wisconsin, and some other stuff, stuff in Chicago, is that the power of the sketch and your, you know, stylistic, interpretation stuff still resulted in, key. Visual references and cues and things like that. And I think that's probably the bigger picture of it all.

Jamie: 16:19

Well, I mean, it could have been, you know, there were those moments. I've got those other sketches where it's, you know, a nude female finger figure, like next to. You know, the Apollo rocket superimposed on the Washington Monument with a little bit of Leibius Woods kind of terrain. I mean, that could have been the logo. I mean, even though that sketch came along much, much later, But I, I like the Rodin, you know, coffee cup and, Castelvecchio, you know, inspiration all kind of working together. It, it really speaks to us and kind of what we've been doing and having fun with this and not taking, not taking it too, too seriously, but at the same time, you know, you know, making a, a, a real genuine nod to the influences that both of us have. Yeah.

Kurt: 17:16

I mean, I'm going to be. I probably sound biased, but you know, when, you know, when, when you nail it, you know, sometimes you just nail it, you know, well, and

Jamie: 17:28

for the viewers are like, wow, Kurt's being really nice to Jamie. It's because Jamie sometimes doesn't like the logo, but no, I do like it. I do like it. And so, and, and, and I do want to hear more about this trip, so let's, let's get some images up on the screen and talk about. Some buildings and,

Kurt: 17:51

Although we didn't talk about coffee yet, and I did want to talk about it. Before, let me, before we flash some imagery here, I, well, since I want to talk about it so much, I am drinking a new roast from Rootless, our friends in Flint at Rootless, called Light Bright, and I wish the camera would pick it up, but they use this Nice foil bag that is sort of iridescent. And so you can't really, I don't know. I don't think it's picking it up as much as you could see it in person, but which now just means I have to send Jamie, a bag of this, but it's called light, bright, and it sort of, so it's a light. Medium roast, Papua, New Guinea, Laha, Minu, Negu, I, I, I'm not going to pronounce that very well at all. and the, the tasting notes though are, berry, cantaloupe and dried cranberry, which, which is what it kind of caught my attention because it's very similar to my other favorite. Berry Kiss and, so when you brew this, well, when you're grinding the beans, they sort of give off those aromas, the tartness, you know, the berry tartness, and it still carries through when you're in your first few sips. So this is, this is going to start to compete for

Jamie: 19:24

my favorite. Are you saying that's on the way? Like, is this another one of those teaser coffees? Like, hey, this is really great. It might be in the mail. That's true.

Kurt: 19:36

Okay. It could be.

Jamie: 19:39

That sounds great.

Kurt: 19:41

And, yeah, I can't wait for you to tell me

Jamie: 19:44

because because we're down to the dregs of coffee here. Like, there's not much left.

Kurt: 19:49

Well, you are going to, you know. I know. Well, see, there's timing timing issues, but the very next shipment that is should be arriving tomorrow is the batch of the coffee sketch coffee. Finally, just in time shipping, right?

Jamie: 20:09

Did you hear the choirs of angels singing? Like, in that moment,

Kurt: 20:15

that's that's my choir. Yeah. So. So once you get it, you gotta, you know, crack that. I haven't even cracked it open yet. Cause you know, to be fair, I didn't, I didn't want to spoil, spoil the fun.

Jamie: 20:32

So yeah, when I, when I cracked that open and like grind the first and brew the first cup, I will definitely be letting you know when that's happening so that we can synchronize watches and all that

Kurt: 20:43

good stuff. And, and also the first, shipment to our special guests has started to go out, starting with our. Our, our, our, our sound, our sound Meister, Charlie, my brother. So, you know, since he is the, the very first sort of the baseline, you know, to our,

Jamie: 21:07

he's the, he's the OG interview. He is the OG

Kurt: 21:10

interview. So it's going to be sequential. So we're, they're rolling out. So our guests are going to, so Cormac, hold your horses. It's coming.

Jamie: 21:20

Yeah, we have to, we have to get it out to the family, apparently. but it's also, you know, for those listeners who want to go back and find that episode, there's a whole lot of me at the very beginning going, Oh my God, like you guys look the same, your twins,

Kurt: 21:37

how, how

Jamie: 21:38

does it, it's like a, it's like one of those kind of proof of life kind of things. yeah,

Kurt: 21:43

yeah, especially when you don't live in the same state, it's like, yeah, prove it. It's not Photoshop. So what about you? Are you drinking anything? are you just. You're at the bottom of the barrel.

Jamie: 21:57

I, I had to like, I had to go get like some coffee and,

Kurt: 22:06

gas station.

Jamie: 22:07

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but I, but I, I, I did. You did mention that there might be stuff coming. So I just was, I went to, get it. I got community coffee. Which I do like, and as sort of a base, you know, they have a, a good kind of base coffee for me. So some reserves? Yes. So that's, that's the reserves, that's the easy, that's the easy reserve. Like when the other ones like, and I can't decide like what, you know, and so like, like I'm like, I'm not gonna get another bag of something else to, to grind. I'm just gonna, you know, get something that's sort of comfortable.

Kurt: 22:48

Well, that's good. Jamie. Well, while I pull up the, some images here, do we want to quickly answer a, a live comment? Yeah.

Jamie: 23:00

Yeah. I just, I see, I see it come up. and like the first thing

Kurt: 23:04

it kind of fits in with some of the imagery that we're,

Jamie: 23:06

it does. It does. I think it does a little bit. And I think that the thing I would say is, it's funny because, yeah, it does. I don't, I was one of those people who always forgot how many semesters I was in school, so, I was never, I was never that person who was like, you know, this is the such and such semester of architecture, but I do appreciate all the people who do do that because it is, it is a trek. and it and I do not, you know, try and make light of that other than my own, wayward journey, I guess, during the process where I and that might have been, you know, a defense mechanism for myself is like I wasn't always like trying to admit to myself how many semesters I had done or how many I had left to. Left to do, so I, I, I do appreciate that. But when I see those kinds of, statements, that's the thing that always sort of stands out to me. So, you know, please don't please don't take that any other way than me. Just making fun of myself.

Kurt: 24:04

well, it's like the marathon, right? If you're familiar with that analogy, but. Paolo, if you don't mind adding, you know, what, what, either what country or what school? Yeah, school or the semesters, the concepts of semesters as Jamie was kind of alluding to and like, for me. We kind of looked at it as years. So for me, it was like a five year process and each year was sort of a milestone.

Jamie: 24:36

See, and I didn't even like, I didn't even have that Kurt, you know, I'm like, I'm just, I'm just, maybe I'm just the oddball. Like for me, like the way I looked at it was like, before I went to Italy and studied abroad. Which was my junior, my junior year. so third year in our program. but like it was the before time and then the after time.

Kurt: 24:59

Before Italy, after

Jamie: 25:02

like, that was, that was, you know, cause, cause I think that that was sort of my, you know, that was my moment to kind of really where it all started to make sense. I mean, and, that. Oh, wow. Awesome. In, in Ecuador. Okay, great. Well, thank you. Thank you for joining us. no. And, and I think that, well, a library, first of all, I would say, my. Thesis project when I was in school, and this is like quite a long I was in school a long time ago. but my thesis project was a library. And so I think that, and that wasn't necessarily because, you know, I was sort of enamored by that program. But, I think 1 of the things that attracted me to it was that. A library in a modern context and even in, even in a historical context, always is a place for people. but at the same time, it's also has sort of challenging program needs in that it's, it's a repository of information. So it's a place of education. but at the same time, it's, it's a, it's a bit democratic in the sense that it's, it's agnostic to all the information. It's trying to present this, this body of knowledge to everybody. and how do you contain that body of knowledge? whether it's a specialty library or just sort of a general library and, And how does that also sort of speak to where it is in a place, because the library is sometimes also the gateway to so many other places in the world for so many people like it's you're reading about places or studying about places that you haven't been to and the library is that gateway. But at the same time, you're present in the space. So it's it's a it's a portal. it's a place of imagination. It's a page place of study and intellect and gathering and then technology. I mean, you know, and that was the thing that that I was sort of enamored with when I was doing my project was how much technology was changing Related to libraries, and digital information and archival information, as we've talked about on the podcast before, I have a preservation background, so, there's an aspect of my, student work where I have drawings in the Library of Congress, you know, in Washington, D. C., and it's, you know, that archival material is, is really, really You know, important to that, to that facility and to that place. But then on the flip side, you know, we, we have a podcast like this where we talk about, you know, newer technologies and digital technologies and, you know, how that transfer of information, You know, it's constantly evolving. So I think, you know, both things can happen in the same space and also with the same designer. and so I think allowing yourself to think about those things, you know, as you're working on your project, is, you know, that's, that's my first big piece of advice is allow yourself to both look at the past, but also dream about the future.

Kurt: 28:17

Yeah. And, and I would add, and I, why I threw in another picture here, because it's. It's, I think what if you can sort of think about what Jamie has said and and and sort of read. Read into it a little deeper to and think about how then conceptually, can you manifest space that relates to this notion of a library? Right? Well, relative to the, the archives or information stored within. Right? So if you do wind up choosing to. Be sort of a general collection or a specific collection, and then how that would affect or impact the shaping of the space. And so what sort of tying in back to my trip in my brief trip to Chicago meeting up with Archie Marathon is, we. I suggested we walk, we're very close, staying very close to this building in the lower right, which is John Ronan's poetry foundation, which is, is a collection specific for, you know, poetry books or, or the, you know, written form. As you know, archives of poetry, things like that. And it's not a very big building. and, and honestly, this, this metal skin that wraps around is, is not even the separation between inside and outside. It's sort of the separation from sidewalk. To inner courtyard, and then you move into the building and and this notion of sort of layered space and sequence and procession from, say, the public realm on the sidewalk through a sort of semi private outdoor courtyard, and then into the building is kind of like peeling. Away layers of a story and a sequence of movement. Well, and

Jamie: 30:25

it's like, it's like when you and I did our 1st live episode in Houston at the drawing Institute, you know, you know, effectively a library for drawings, in Houston by by the Menil. the Menil by Renzo Piano, but the Drawing Institute, the newest building on the campus by one of Kurt's favorite architects, and, and, and it's the same kind of thing where you have this sequence of spaces that are creating, layers of rooms that eventually lead you into the collection, and, you know, really kind of engage, a patron or the public, in different ways, I'd say that the Kimbell, the image that Kurt has on the screen to the left, and, and where I'm doing that sketch, this is, this is the approach that was first presented to me of the Kimbell, and it is not Kahn's, intended entrance to the building. and what, what you're seeing there sort of in the foreground is some Noguchi sculptures, and what was sort of brought to my attention when we first visited this when I was a student of architecture, in my third semester, had to think about it for a minute, was that, you know, this was a place where it was okay to loiter. It was okay to stay a while. It was okay to kind of. You know, absorb the space. And so when I go back there, I always take a minute to spend a little bit of time in that space. and in this case was, you know, an opportunity to sketch, but, I just, I share it that way cause it, it really does sort of relate to what Kurt was sort of describing about the, the, the Ronan building and kind of the layers of space there in Chicago.

Kurt: 32:19

Yeah. And actually I'm going to try and grab a picture, that I took and. Of course, I didn't somehow. I'm a terrible photographer. here. This is probably the best example and I'll throw this in real quick. Adjacent, you know, so this is the interior and in the last. I'll let it load for a sec here just just to let sort of touch on it. One more time. Is it kind of similar to Jamie? Well, it's really following along with Jamie said about Kimball space and the. allowing people to take the time and use the space as they see, appropriate. Right? So a freedom, right? Sort of, what we call un un un undeclared or un unprogrammed space. Unprogrammed space that. That the user gets to decide, which, which from

Jamie: 33:23

from as a student of architecture, your professor is going to, you know, be like throwing their hands up. What do you mean? Unprogrammed space? but it, I think as a designer yourself, as you start to mature, and and sort of ask yourself and interrogate your own work. sometimes those moments to think about those unprogrammed moments, where people are going to be people, you know, in, in your design is, is a good place to set your, set your thoughts for a little bit.

Kurt: 33:58

And so my, the, the, the piece that I was intending to add is really the experience that I got out of the poetry. Foundation building is, is, is what came to mind is that, you know, the teaching that I do, I teach at a university here in Michigan and not the University of Michigan, but a other university in the same state. Anyway, is. To not forget about how the building meets the context, the, the, the rest of the urban condition or whatever surroundings it has, right? So like poetry Foundation has, this corner site, but you don't enter the building straight off the corner. I mean, you enter into the space, but you're actually enter into the interior of the, the enclosed building. Until you walk through this courtyard. So on the right hand side is the actual entry door, which is deep into this courtyard space and the courtyard itself, as I understand is intended to be, an outdoor room that can be used to recite for, for poets to recite and have. you know, casual poetry recitals or gatherings in an outdoor realm. So it has this, these nicely planted. I think they're a type of elm tree, very low, some public, you know, some loose seeding and this concrete and gravel patio that sort of sets up a sort of movement. A certain meandering movement into the front door. So basically, you know, don't don't ignore, you know, there's the program that you're given the, the amount of space that you have to create of a building. But don't forget about how you can leverage outdoor space in con You know, in conjunction or in tandem with indoor space and how that movement between spaces strengthens each other. So anyway, so that's, that's my take on. So hopefully, Paolo, you know, you take that and, you know, if you have any other questions, let us know. But I think that's, I think you have a really interesting project coming up. And,

Jamie: 36:26

and thanks for and thanks. Yeah. Thanks for asking, like, a kind of a, a good kind of pointed advice question. I think it's great.

Kurt: 36:36

Yeah. And it fits right in with what we really were planning on talking about. I think it will at least in the same vein. that's, that's what we call serendipity in, in, in a world. Right. You know, so, so Jamie, what else did, did you, Well, you

Jamie: 36:55

got this picture of the Johnson wax building, you know, like from a magazine. And, I, I'm assuming it's a magazine shot. I have no idea.

Kurt: 37:04

I'll tell you why. Yeah. We weren't allowed to take pictures of the inside ourselves,

Jamie: 37:10

just the outside. Like that's painful. Like it, it is. But did they allow you enough time to sketch inside this space?

Kurt: 37:20

Oh, yeah. I've got, or did they, I got a really funky sketch if you

Jamie: 37:23

want. Or did they just hustle you through?

Kurt: 37:27

Well, it was quick. They didn't necessarily hustle. And let's see if I can pull up, where's my, oh, I don't think I, oh, it's on my iPad. I do have a photo. here, this is about the best I can do of a, of an image, but, yeah. So the rules were, you were not allowed to take a picture in inside any building. Is this like fight club? Well, you know, private property. So they, they, they had rules. Okay. Okay. They still, so, so while they don't use the, the Frank Lloyd Wright. Design spaces anymore for day to day operations. S. C. Johnson, the company. Still, is this is their part of their campus. Okay. And they, they, so they have, you know, sort of more modern facilities right next door. that they're all their laboratories and things like that are are housed in, And administration buildings and things like that, but, they, no longer use these spaces. So it really is turned into a museum. So it's still private property. And so, you know, they can make their own rules. But so basically on the left

Jamie: 38:47

didn't they shoot in here or something.

Kurt: 38:52

I don't know that maybe that did not come up in the conversation. Okay.

Jamie: 38:56

I'm just I'm so I think I think that might be a, that might be true,

Kurt: 39:00

but I'm not sure. We'll have to do some fact checking, but on the left is an interior from some publication somewhere that I Googled and on the right is my picture as you're approaching this lobby. So this is the entry sequence into the space. So there's a canopy, a very low slung, you know, very Franklin, right? Signature move if there was 1 is compressing your entrance into the space and then sort of expanding into a nice tall space, which you see on the left. and the only difference that you can't see. Well, is that. You know, the desks are all empty now, all the clutter is gone. But, yeah, so we, we took the tour. So, you know, we, we met up Chicago, and then we drove up to Racine, which is only about an hour and a half north of Chicago, had a tour scheduled, through, through the, the admin building, which is this, and then the research tower as well, which is. Probably the iconic and I'll, I'll try and grab that image also for those who are not familiar, but if you're

Jamie: 40:20

not, well, and as you, as you're pulling up that image, you know, what strikes me is that we literally just had, like, you know, going back a couple episodes, like 2, maybe, we were talking about still had his work here in Austin with their pedals. pedals in the plaza. And so the minute you started talking about this, that's, that's where my mind went with the Johnson wax is like the, you know, that those iconic type elements, that is sort of ingrained in every architect, you know, who's looked at sort of Western traditional, modernism and, You know, you know, then you, I see those and then I look at what Snowhead does at the Blanton in Austin and, you know, don't tell me that there's not something in their brain and there's some design moment where somebody says, you know, this makes me feel like the Johnson wax building, you know, because if you pan over to the left there a little bit. no, no, no. Just, just right there. Yeah. Where, where the pedals don't touch, right. You know, but they, they almost kind of come up and almost kiss each other like lily pads, you know, or whatever. you know, I've heard them described so many different ways, but, you know, I think that that's, you know, that tension. Of those forms is kind of, you know, a wonderfully interesting and beautiful thing. And there's that Blanton sketch that I had done. I mean, obviously, the, the pedals are very, very different, you know, once they get up to the upper piece. But, yeah, I think that the idea is sort of there

Kurt: 41:59

that subliminal influence. And, and the, I think, well, I mean, there's a combination of say, like, I'm sorry, I'm hinting and giving away too many other sketches that lots of

Jamie: 42:16

sketches, but,

Kurt: 42:17

you know, there's a combination between geometry, say, mathematics, geometry and, and, and structural capacity. And so how do you then shape space that challenge both? The geometric composition, if I'm trying to keep it simple, and then the structural, you know, bearing capacity. Right. And say Blanton, different material, different setting. It's a little, it's more outdoor, but Frank Lloyd Wright, you know, and so they both have their constraints as far as gravity and structure and things like that. But, you know, as architects, we're, we're working on enclosing or creating space, creating a volume or an envelope or container. Or a frame even keep it simple and how, how, how do you structure that? And then what are the dimensions and proportions and and so on? And I think, you know, some, some of those constraints, like gravity, for example, cannot be altered. On Earth, at least, right? You know, other planets, something else, but here, you know, that's 1 force that has a challenge. That you can't avoid,

Jamie: 43:35

but the media is also challenging it. Right, right. Does with these snow head. It does with theirs. Zaha Hadid, you know, did magically with her paintings and then later with your built work. So, right.

Kurt: 43:52

And yeah, so, yeah, I think that the concept of influence and and form generation, can kind of transcend across. These various generations, it's kind of interesting. I guess, you know, you brought up the idea of, like, you know, last, last week's conversation about the Blanton and it that's where I'm going with it is sort of this interesting, just this interesting sort of subliminal tie in or. I don't want to say subliminal, but I can't think of a better word. And so, yeah, so, so that's kind of been, it was a whirlwind little trip. probably still some things that we'll unpack like on future episodes. You know, just little tidbits about Chicago and Racine and the toll toll roads between. Right.

Jamie: 44:51

Well, and, and, and just to, you know, I know we're, we're kind of bumping up against our time here, but, you know, we've, we've touched on travel, we've touched on the sketch, and then we've sort of got me there kind of off to the, off to the left and, and I made a nod to the fact that that sketch was. kind of the birth of this podcast that summer. and so there's a, a fair amount of nostalgia that we've been going through of late, you know, with our, our 300th episode with, with Cormac and Evan. and then sort of things that we've been thinking about sort of, so this is, this is my opportunity to say, you know, thank you. You know, you know, you, you did it, you know, very masterfully, and, and as a, you know, a beautiful surprise for me, when we were talking with them in their episode, our, our crossover super group team up. but I, I want to, you know, to, to thank you, for, you know, convincing me that. We could talk about sketches that no one could see, and have a beautiful conversation of two architect friends over coffee. and, and now five years later, we're, still having a hell of a lot of fun. Oh,

Kurt: 46:12

I appreciate that. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's also been fun. I don't, I didn't know where to start. Replying to that. But, you know, now we have some new technology with some visual visual aids now. So it maybe either makes our lives easier or adds another wrinkle to the process, but it's a lot of fun. So, yeah, thanks. No, we, I think it was a good chat and there's still more to unpack in future episodes.

Jamie: 46:44

Lots more sketches.